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The XML-DEV Blog

The XML-DEV email discussion forum was started nearly 10 years ago by Dr. Peter Murray-Rust and Dr. Henry Rzepa of Imperial College (UK), covering XML development topics including XML standards, XML specifications, and technical questions related to the eXtensible Markup Language. The XML-DEV Blog brings the XML-DEV community into the blogging era, enabling XML developers to easily follow the hottest threads in the blogosphere.


Re: Parameter entities in internal subset

Posted 12/2/2018 7:53:45 PM

Ron, I happened to be searching for some info and stumbled across your email… almost a year late! Thought I’d chime in since I saw no other responses. The only way I’ve been able to make heads-or-tails of this is to interpret that the entity value as not quite IN an entity declaration (or, rathe . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] XML Prague 2019 - Call for Proposals - deadline coming soon

Posted 12/1/2018 11:46:09 AM

Hi, this is gentle reminder that you have this weekend to submit your proposals for XML Prague. The XML Prague conference will include two full days of single track sessions as well as a multitrack unconference day. The conference is held on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday (February 7-9, 2019) . . . Read full entry »


Declarative language for reversible transformations?

Posted 11/30/2018 12:48:38 PM

Hi Folks, I am seeking a powerful, declarative XML language for expressing reversible transformations. Here is an example to illustrate what I mean by reversible transformation. Input files contain an integer denoting a machine: 0 denotes Intel 386, 1 denotes x86, 2 denotes ARMv7. Here is an . . . Read full entry »


Re: XML Programming Language, specification to write

Posted 11/30/2018 11:20:19 AM

> A slightly off-subject remark: > I think all XML-based programming languages (like XSLT) are seriously handicapped by the verbosity of XML. > This seriously limits their acceptance by non-XML-specialists.Isn't this too simplistic?  XSLT is not a general purpose design, it is optimize . . . Read full entry »


Re: XML Programming Language, specification to write

Posted 11/29/2018 6:21:22 PM

Hello Victor, A slightly off-subject remark: I think all XML-based programming languages (like XSLT) are seriously handicapped by the verbosity of XML. This seriously limits their acceptance by non-XML-specialists. If usability is one of yours goals, you can make your language look like more trad . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/29/2018 12:03:06 PM

I had a contract with HMRC last year where they were using JSON Schema.  It wasn't the worst thing about working with JSON, and I believe both XML Spy and OxygenXML support it now. HTH, Tom On 29 Nov 2018, 11:59 +0000, Timothy Cook <timothywayn . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/29/2018 9:58:13 AM

I am working on a project that demands JSON and whose target is multi-party interoperability. In the XML world, defining the message exchanges in XSD would be the easy win, and there is nothing in this project that would not be handled by any of the versions of XSD. But this project demands JSON, a . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/28/2018 4:32:49 PM

I've been working with Andy Newton on his JSON Content Rules described in the https://www.ietfjournal.org/the-benefits-of-a-json-data-definition-language/ page you mention. You can see more details at: http://json-content-rules.org CDDL is an official IETF effort primarily focused on defining . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/28/2018 4:16:06 PM

On 28/11/2018 15:42, Toby Considine wrote: But this project demands JSON, and the community around the project demands JSON. This list has had frequent discussions of XML vs JSON, some technical, some tending toward flame, so I am bringing this question here. You brought it here because of our t . . . Read full entry »


RE: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/28/2018 12:53:39 PM

Well, flames do imply passion, which might suggest knowledge and/or experience.... And absolutely, Words as well. The DDL is a data structure and variable enforcer only. The other replies have been useful, but I have no reply, and no strong answer, yet. Keep those replies coming. Thanks tc --- . . . Read full entry »


RE: JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/28/2018 12:18:04 PM

> -----Original Message----- > From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Toby > Considine > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 10:43 > To: xml-dev@lists.xml . . . Read full entry »


JSON DDL suggestions?

Posted 11/28/2018 10:42:53 AM

I am working on a project that demands JSON and whose target is multi-party interoperability.  In the XML world, defining the message exchanges in XSD would be the easy win, and there is nothing in this project that would not be handled by any of the versions of XSD.  But this project dem . . . Read full entry »


[Schematron] Question about let-Element and multiply defined variables

Posted 11/26/2018 1:22:43 PM

Hi all, Section 5.4.5 of Schematron 2016 reads: ,---- | 5.4.5 let element | | ... | | It is an error to reference a variable that has not been defined in | the current schema, phase, pattern, or rule, if the query language | binding allows this to be determined reliably. It is an error for a | va . . . Read full entry »


Re: [ANN] SchXslt, another XSLT-based Schematron processor

Posted 11/16/2018 10:47:14 AM

Great, David ! Would you make it available as a Maven Artifact ? It'll be great to embed it in other applications. I'm gonna run some tests with XSpec for Schematron implementation. Thanks a lot, David ! Christophe Le 16/11/2018 à 08:19, David Maus a écrit : Hello all, I just published SchXs . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] SchXslt, another XSLT-based Schematron processor

Posted 11/16/2018 8:19:02 AM

Hello all, I just published SchXslt, another XSLT-based Schematron processor. https://github.com/dmj/schxslt It follows the same idea as Rick's Skeleton implementation, but implements it differently. Most notably it only supports the xslt2 query language. Feedback is welcome. Best, -- David . . . Read full entry »


Re: XSD error cvc-elt is plain misleading

Posted 11/15/2018 10:55:26 AM

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 6:43 AM Rick Jelliffe <rjelliffe@allette.com.au> wrote:For example, the most basic error, cvc-elt-1: you can see the typical kinds of description for it here.  It will give you an error like:cvc-elt.1: Cannot f . . . Read full entry »


Re: I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64bytes

Posted 11/14/2018 1:14:39 PM

On Tue, 2018-11-13 at 13:32 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT > processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. Hmm. My own text retrieval system [1] limited files to 2^23 blocks of 64 bytes eac . . . Read full entry »


XSD error cvc-elt is plain misleading

Posted 11/14/2018 12:13:39 PM

One of the nice things of XSD is that it enumerates the errors. This then allows the potential causes to be listed, and a tool can then give very specific information. And the developer or user of the schema will then think "Hurray, this is all so easy, I feel so empowered."So where does . . . Read full entry »


Re: XSD error cvc-elt is plain misleading

Posted 11/13/2018 10:40:03 PM

On Wed, 2018-11-14 at 12:13 +1100, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Systems that pretend to report diagnostics (efficient or triggering > causes) > when they just present more symptoms (proximate cause) are the bane > of the > computing industry. They are. Years ago i wrote an error-reportin . . . Read full entry »


Re: I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64bytes

Posted 11/13/2018 4:47:59 PM

On 13/11/2018 14:07, Rhodri James wrote: > On 13/11/2018 13:32, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT >> processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. Can you explain why you believe thi . . . Read full entry »


Re: I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64bytes

Posted 11/13/2018 4:43:14 PM

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 13:32, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. > > 2^6 . . . Read full entry »


Re: I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64bytes

Posted 11/13/2018 2:07:13 PM

On 13/11/2018 13:32, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Hi Folks, I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. 2^64 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 (20 digits) That's well over a petabyte. Good luck finding that much storage. . . . Read full entry »


I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size

Posted 11/13/2018 1:32:18 PM

Hi Folks, I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. 2^64 = 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 (20 digits) Why that number? Here's why: The number 2^64 is: The number of distinct values representable in a single word on a . . . Read full entry »


Re: I think XML tools should handle XML files up to 2^64bytes

Posted 11/13/2018 10:56:13 AM

It's really not April 1, is it? Jim On 2018-11-13 06:32, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Hi Folks, I think XML tools (e.g., XML parsers, schema validators, XSLT processors) should handle XML files up to 2^64 bytes in size. 2^64 = 18,446,744,073,709,551 . . . Read full entry »


Re: Schematron: Is @documents of an abstract patternsubject to

Posted 11/2/2018 8:56:12 AM

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 15:29:41 +0100, David Maus wrote: > > Hi Rick, > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 15:16:40 +0100, > Rick Jelliffe wrote: > > > > Because you can provide @document on the sch:pattern[@is-a='XXXX'] > > is there a need to provide @document on the > > . . . Read full entry »


Re: Was there a technical issue for the demise of XML 1.1?

Posted 10/8/2018 10:00:02 PM

On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 at 21:01, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > It is my understanding that the reason for the demise of XML 1.1 was simply that it was never adopted by the community - people were already using 1.0 a . . . Read full entry »


Was there a technical issue for the demise of XML 1.1?

Posted 10/8/2018 8:01:02 PM

Hi Folks, It is my understanding that the reason for the demise of XML 1.1 was simply that it was never adopted by the community - people were already using 1.0 and there was no compelling reason for moving to 1.1. Was there also a technical issue for its demise? /Roger . . . Read full entry »


Re: Was there a technical issue for the demise of XML 1.1?

Posted 10/8/2018 6:56:04 PM

It was a collection of fixes to XML 1.0 none of which was in itself sufficiently compelling to justify a new and incompatible version.  The feature I considered the most important, ditching Unicode 2.0 in favor of an evolving set of characters for element and attribute names (as well as the values . . . Read full entry »


RE: Solid -- a fascinating new technology from Tim Berners-Lee

Posted 10/5/2018 1:51:12 PM

It’s a NodeJS app, thereby making it an oxymoron.   From: Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 9:52 AM To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org Subject: Solid -- a . . . Read full entry »


Nice definition of "string"

Posted 10/4/2018 9:35:58 AM

From the Julia language web page:Conceptually, a string is a partial function from indices to characters: for some index values, no character value is returned, and instead an exception is thrown. Nice!*RegardsRick* Julia uses UTF-8, which would kinda force this approach. . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Bxml=2Ddev=5D_Don=E2=80=99t_create_elements_with_simpl

Posted 10/3/2018 10:24:03 AM

1. Element name (lifting)<CostInEuro>234</CostInEuro>2. Attribute<Cost currency="Euro">234</Cost>3. Attribute reference  <Cost currency="xyz">234</Cost>...<Currency id="xyz">Euro</Currency>4. Container<Cost<Amount&g . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Bxml=2Ddev=5D_Don=E2=80=99t_create_elements_with_simpl

Posted 10/2/2018 1:00:54 PM

There has been a substantial international effort in exactly this issue which has resulted in widely adopted boutique standards for financial reporting: XBRL.In XBRL, you have "facts" like a number. But every number must have units, in particular currency, otherwise it is meaningless; and . . . Read full entry »


Solid -- a fascinating new technology from Tim Berners-Lee

Posted 10/1/2018 1:52:08 PM

Hi Folks,   Tim Berners-Lee has started a new technology called Solid (https://solid.mit.edu/). It’s basic tenet is that my data should be owned/controlled by me, instead of Facebook, Google, etc. An excerpt from the web site:   Users should have the freedom to choose where the . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_=5Bxml=2Ddev=5D_Don=E2=80=99t_create_elements_with_simpl

Posted 10/1/2018 10:02:57 AM

//The need for external knowledge completely contradicts the fundamental axiom of XMLI think that this is the fundamentally false statement.  Unless your data uses some sort of RDF like semantic association, the 'meaning' of your tagging is always external to your mark-up, and even in that . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent a "cost" in XML?

Posted 9/27/2018 11:30:53 AM

Dear Roger,   I find both of following ok.<Cost currency="USD">8.95</Cost>or <Cost>   <Currency>USD</Currency>   <Value>8.95</Value></Cost>(these are my personal preferences)I also need to look at Ken's suggestions!On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 a . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent a "cost" in XML?

Posted 9/27/2018 8:19:45 AM

And just to add - the Amount might not have the same name subject as currency - it could be that two amounts called XyzAmount and ZyxAmount both have the same currency code AbcCurrencyCode where Xyz and Zyx are subclasses of Abc.<SomeSortOfDataSet>...<XyzAmount>123.45</XyzAmount>. . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent a "cost" in XML?

Posted 9/27/2018 8:02:46 AM

Another XML representation based on typical data designs in financial systems is<SomeSortOfDataSet>...<XyzAmount>123.45</XyzAmount>...<XyzCurrencyCode>USD</XyzCurrencyCode>...</SomeSortOfDataSet>This has the advantage that the amount and currency can be positione . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent a "cost" in XML?

Posted 9/26/2018 9:47:59 PM

Would you accept using the term Price? UBL has both a structured price and an unstructured price: http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/os-UBL-2.2/mod/summary/reports/All-UBL-2.2-Documents.html#Table-Price.Details http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/os-UBL-2.2/mod/summary/reports/All-UBL-2.2-Documents.html# . . . Read full entry »


How to represent a "cost" in XML?

Posted 9/26/2018 9:44:26 PM

Hi Folks,   I would like to represent in XML the cost of something.   Here’s one way to represent it:   <Cost currency="USD">8.95</Cost>   If you didn’t want to use attributes (or mixed content), how would you represent it?   Would y . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to estimate the time needed to create an XML schema?

Posted 9/19/2018 4:26:52 PM

To which we may add, * Testing with users * Feedback + changes * Testing etc. How long was that piece of string? On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 15:54, Tony Graham <tgraham@antenna.co.jp> wrote: > > On 19/09/2018 14:13, . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to estimate the time needed to create an XMLschema?

Posted 9/19/2018 3:53:57 PM

On 19/09/2018 14:13, G. Ken Holman wrote: Whatever you come up with, multiply it by pi before submitting the estimate. A long-ago colleague advised me of that and it has worked well for me. I tend to use the kg-lb conversion factor, but pi may be better. ... At 2018-09-19 12:56 +0000, Costello . . . Read full entry »


How to estimate the time needed to create an XML schema?

Posted 9/19/2018 12:56:36 PM

Hi Folks, Is there an "industry standard" for estimating the time needed to create an XML schema? For example, the estimated time needed to create an XML schema containing 200 elements, each element having 1-3 attributes, is ____ hours. /Roger . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to estimate the time needed to create an XML schema?

Posted 9/19/2018 9:13:43 AM

Whatever you come up with, multiply it by pi before submitting the estimate. A long-ago colleague advised me of that and it has worked well for me. As for the base value, I think there are far too many variables to establish any kind of "industry standard". You are devising a seriali . . . Read full entry »


Re: Schema-aware spell checker?

Posted 9/13/2018 1:49:52 PM

I’d be surprised if there were such a specialized tool. What if you processed the schemas with XSLT so that you have a plain text output that you can spellcheck in an editor or word processing application? The rules which attributes to process and where to split their contents (dashes, undersco . . . Read full entry »


Schema-aware spell checker?

Posted 9/13/2018 11:00:07 AM

Hi Folks, I was given a bunch of XML schema files. A cursory examination revealed spelling errors, as illustrated by this element declaration: <xs:element name="repititionRate" type="t:RepetitionRate" /> Notice that the element name is misspelled (should be repetitionRa . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/7/2018 3:26:11 AM

I was told MS did not want to upgrade, because they have a 20 year support policy, and they were not sure it would have enough users to justify the expense. They were trying to correct their old image of not fixing bugs; one way was to keep versions stable. (30 years ago or so, I rang up Microsoft . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/6/2018 6:40:45 PM

Another story I heard (which of course I cannot verify) was that MS at the time had 4 main product divisions: Windows, IE, Office, and SQL Server, who all had an interest in XML technologies and all wanted the investment to come from a different division's budget... They couldn't agree with each ot . . . Read full entry »


Re: looking for an xml standard for hardware configuration

Posted 9/3/2018 2:21:20 PM

Thanks a lot! Looking around, following from what you sent I guess there's ISO 10303-239 - reading some here http://www.plcs.org/plcslib/plcslib/ ?On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 1:09 PM Gareth Oakes <goakes@gpsl.co> wrote: Hi Bryan,   . . . Read full entry »


Re: looking for an xml standard for hardware configuration

Posted 9/3/2018 12:53:51 PM

On Mon, 2018-09-03 at 10:51 +0200, bryan rasmussen wrote: > > The purpose of the project is basically to make generators for > configurations/assemblage information for widely different hardware > products. The nearest in this space i know of is the service modeling language, SML, htt . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/3/2018 11:21:00 AM

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 8:38 PM John Dziurlaj <john@hiltonroscoe.com> wrote:In using XML and related standards over the years, XML Schema, XSLT, XPath, and SQL/XML, a single number stands out to me: “1.0”.  This is no surprise, as I’ve spent most . . . Read full entry »


Re: looking for an xml standard for hardware configuration

Posted 9/3/2018 11:09:55 AM

Hi Bryan,   What you’re describing sounds like PLM to me (Product Lifecycle Management). We have used PTC Windchill for these use cases before as it allows very detailed and configurable modelling of product configurations. It is great for parts management: options, variants, super . . . Read full entry »


looking for an xml standard for hardware configuration

Posted 9/3/2018 10:51:55 AM

Hey, I've just started on a new project that has been going on for a year and a half and which one part of the project is just crying out for XML but instead is managed by an online 'editor' with lots of little forms that business specialists need to go in and click and enter values in . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 10:32:11 PM

> Yup. Do you think there's a clear contender for that rôle as a language [for anything XML-related] today? In theory, that would be JavaScript. It was invented for DOM manipulation, and is derived from awk syntax, a language for pattern-/rule-based manipulation of text. M. Reichardt sgmljs.ne . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 8:49:51 PM

Since you mention XProc: The almost-finished XProc 3.0 specification will initially have two implementations. One of them (XML Calabash 2) is written in Scala, the other one (Morgana XProc, probably also version 2) is written in Java. Both run on a JVM, but they are not all implemented in the s . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 8:02:52 PM

> > The other question is, why has Java been the dominant platform? There's perhaps another point that I should have included here: back in 1998 Java was the only game in town. It's easily forgotten that back then, Microsoft was backing Java. I forget the exact chronology of Microsoft's br . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 7:18:21 PM

There are a number of points raised here which ought to be separated.For XML itself, as a data interchange standard, the only serious attempt to improve on 1.0 was the 1.1 standard, which proved unsuccessful despite the fact that there were a number of implementations. Essentially what we learnt fr . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 3:36:32 PM

On Sun, 2018-09-02 at 20:02 +0100, Michael Kay wrote: > It's easily forgotten that > back then, Microsoft was backing Java. I forget the exact chronology > of Microsoft's break with Java, but in 1998 Java was the obvious > choice for any developer who wanted their software to run anywh . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 3:26:35 PM

On Sun, 2018-09-02 at 11:08 -0400, John Dziurlaj wrote: > [...] > This is no surprise, as I’ve spent most of my time in the .NET space, > where Microsoft has not seen fit to update its support of XML > standards after its initial enthusiasm in the early 2000s. They actually tried and . . . Read full entry »


Is XML a programming language monoculture?

Posted 9/2/2018 11:08:43 AM

In using XML and related standards over the years, XML Schema, XSLT, XPath, and SQL/XML, a single number stands out to me: “1.0”.  This is no surprise, as I’ve spent most of my time in the .NET space, where Microsoft has not seen fit to update its support of XML standards after its initial enthusia . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] Release of XMLmind Word To XML v1.5.1

Posted 8/31/2018 10:04:17 AM

Release of XMLmind Word To XML v1.5.1. Some minor enhancements and bug fixes. More information in http://www.xmlmind.com/w2x/changes.html ---------------------------- What is XMLmind Word To XML? ---------------------------- XMLmind Word To XML can automatically convert DOCX files to: - Clean, . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] Release of XMLmind XML Editor v8.2

Posted 8/27/2018 11:01:49 AM

Release of XMLmind XML Editor v8.2. Highlights: - Enhanced DITA, DocBook and XHTML toolbars. - New Lightweight DITA[1] (AKA LwDITA) configuration, installed by default, may be used to create XDITA (very small subset of DITA XML, plus new audio and video elements) maps and topics. - Upgraded XM . . . Read full entry »


Announce: Automatic transformations between XML namespaces

Posted 8/22/2018 12:18:07 AM

Next big thing: Automatic transformations between XML namespaces. I wrote a (draft) specification: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Automatic_transformation_of_XML_namespaces I also have written an alpha release of a software which implements this specification: http . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] Release of free, open source, XMLmind Ebook Compiler v1.3

Posted 8/21/2018 4:49:43 PM

Release of free, open source, XMLmind Ebook Compiler v1.3. Highlights: - In addition to HTML, an ebook page may now be written in Markdown (https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/), with many “Markdown dialects” and many Markdown syntax extensions being supported (this is configurable). . . . Read full entry »


From voltages to XML

Posted 8/21/2018 8:44:02 AM

Hi Folks, Once upon a time there was a device containing a continuous stream of voltages. Along came a clever fellow who decided to: Discretize the continuous stream of voltages into parts, which he called “bits”. Bits with a voltage at or above a certain level, he represented wi . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/18/2018 10:44:03 AM

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 2:55 AM John Dziurlaj <john@hiltonroscoe.com> wrote:Use XML Assertions[mukul] do you mean XSD 1.1 assertions by this?-- Regards,Mukul Gandhi . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/17/2018 10:17:18 PM

On Fri, 2018-08-17 at 10:18 +0300, George Bina wrote: > [...] > allowing a > configuration file to control what elements, attributes and values > are > presented to the user: People going down this route might want to consider generating the Oxygen config file from the Schema, e. . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/17/2018 5:40:12 PM

One method that might be easier to sell to people from a database background is to not talk in terms of schemas at all, even though you utilize them.So you have 1) a Data Dictionary  (or vocabulary) and 2) Business Rules for the server and for each client (if they need it).For the Data Dictionary, . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/17/2018 10:18:16 AM

Hi, Another approach is to implement the restriction not by restricting the schema but by restricting the user access to the schema information, if the tool that the users are using allow for that. We implemented such an approach in oXygen XML Editor - the tool we develop - allowing a configur . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/17/2018 9:48:54 AM

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 5:55 PM Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote: Berkeleyian question: if there are no VMS systems left executing, does their time still elapse? :-)Fortunately, we don't have to decide. There are still many Vaxen runningin U.S. military insta . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/16/2018 10:55:52 PM

On 16/08/18 16:40, John Cowan wrote: > [...] The Modified Julian Date, otherwise known as the VAX/VMS epoch, > is the JD - 2,400,000.5, which eliminates the half-day, therefore > starting at midnight GMT on November 17, 1858 Gregorian. Good grief. I'd forgotten about that. Berkeleyian qu . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/16/2018 2:31:01 PM

In my experience deriving complex types by restriction is hopelessly unwieldy. For example, if the original schema allows a set of 20 currencies and you want to restrict this to just 3, then it's easy enough to define a simple type that restricts the set of currencies; but you then need a restricte . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/16/2018 11:40:51 AM

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 11:04 AM Toby Considine <Toby.Considine@gmail.com> wrote:Well noted, Peter & Norman.  I was not aware that GMT bumped the day at noon...It mostly mattered to astronomers, who didn't want to divvy up a night' . . . Read full entry »


RE: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/16/2018 8:50:37 AM

Not quite. The customer wants to constraint the schema in order to produce documentation to their downstream consumers, so those consumers know what data to provide. This is all good information, I will share my chosen approach in the coming weeks. John -----Original Message----- From: Imsieke, G . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/16/2018 8:30:12 AM

I was tacitly assuming that your customer needs /context-dependent/ constraints, for example different div/@type attribute values at different locations of a TEI document. If you simply want to throw out elements or attributes wholesale, your base schema probably provides hooks for defining the . . . Read full entry »


Re: Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/16/2018 8:20:26 AM

Hi John, As Eric van der Vlist writes, restricting existing schemas that lack fine-grained hooks for everything that possibly needs to be constrained in the future is harder than extending existing schemas: http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.html#relax-CHP-12-SECT-1.3 If y . . . Read full entry »


Unsound abstractions

Posted 8/15/2018 8:47:58 PM

Hi Folks, When you create an XML Schema, you are creating an abstraction. Is your abstraction sound? Read on! Recently I read an article about creating models of continuous things, by breaking the things up into pieces [discretizing them]. The article used the phrase “unsound abstraction . . . Read full entry »


Constraining a Schema

Posted 8/15/2018 5:25:18 PM

I am working with a schema that is purposely lax (i.e. it may allow too many occurrences, may contain irrelevant elements, etc.) so that it can handle a broad range of customer scenarios. I now have a customer that wants to constrain the schema such that only a subset of the functionality is availa . . . Read full entry »


Expat 2.2.6 released

Posted 8/15/2018 4:42:50 PM

Hi everyone! I would like to let you know that Expat 2.2.6 has just been released. Besides improvements to the build system, 2.2.6 is a bugfix release. For more details please check the change log at [1]. If you maintain Expat packaging or a bundled version of Expat somewhere, please update to 2 . . . Read full entry »


RE: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/15/2018 11:05:16 AM

And I should have included this recent gem... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/25/big-tech-warns-japan-mill ennium-bug-y2k-emperor-akihito-abdication -----Original Message----- From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gm . . . Read full entry »


RE: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/15/2018 11:04:40 AM

Well noted, Peter & Norman. I was not aware that GMT bumped the day at noon... This does not even touch on the problems of time zones, and that the machine readable registry of time zones and DST rules is a server that as of three years ago was a hobby. I remember because folks were worries a . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 10:21:18 PM

On 14 Aug 2018, at 21:44, Peter Flynn wrote: On 14/08/18 17:39, Toby Considine wrote: And as we wander down the road toward the one true solution, be sure to consider the non-Gregorian issues that can be quite engrossing. Indeed they can. In the CELT project, we have old Irish annals of var . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 9:44:03 PM

On 14/08/18 17:39, Toby Considine wrote: > And as we wander down the road toward the one true solution, be sure > to consider the non-Gregorian issues that can be quite engrossing. Indeed they can. In the CELT project, we have old Irish annals of varying sorts, using Anno Mundi which sets ye . . . Read full entry »


Re: Mandatory <sch:properties> element in Schematron 2016?

Posted 8/14/2018 4:28:36 PM

Hi David,You're quite right: I amended it in the latest draft that was put to a ballot earlier this year.It will be optional in the forthcoming edition.Regards,AndrewOn 14 August 2018 at 15:23, David Maus <lists@dmaus.name> wrote:Hello all, The RELA . . . Read full entry »


Mandatory <sch:properties> element in Schematron 2016?

Posted 8/14/2018 4:23:55 PM

Hello all, The RELAX NG schema for Schematron in Annex A of Schematron 2016 makes the sch:properties element mandatory. ,---- | schema = element schema { | attribute id { xsd:ID }?, | rich, | attribute schemaVersion { non-empty-string }?, | attribute defaultPhase { xsd:IDREF }?, | attri . . . Read full entry »


RE: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 12:39:57 PM

And as we wander down the road toward the one true solution, be sure to consider the non-Gregorian issues that can be quite engrossing. A start is the Hijira calendar for the Islamic world Shamsi & Jalaali (Persian) Calendar for Iran The calendars based on blends of Solar and Lunar, includi . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 11:02:00 AM

On 14/08/18 10:35, David Carlisle wrote: > On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 at 22:59, Liam R. E. Quin <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 2018-03-31 at 29:75 +0100, Michael Kay wrote: >>> Both of these regular expressio . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 10:38:27 AM

On Tue, 2018-08-14 at 10:35 +0100, David Carlisle wrote: > I don't fancy > trying to encode the leap year rules as a regex:-) There's a 4KByte regexp for time and date given in the O'Reilly Mastering Regular Expressions book. You could write it much more simply with Perl 6 regular expressio . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/14/2018 10:35:58 AM

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 at 22:59, Liam R. E. Quin <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote: > > On Mon, 2018-03-31 at 29:75 +0100, Michael Kay wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > Both of these regular expressions allow any month to have . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/13/2018 9:45:12 PM

I'm not sure why you've modified this from the regex given in the XSD 1.1 spec which is (ignoring whitespace):-?([1-9][0-9]{3,}|0[0-9]{3}) -(0[1-9]|1[0-2]) -(0[1-9]|[12][0-9]|3[01]) T(([01][0-9]|2[0-3]):[0-5][0-9]:[0-5][0-9](\.[0-9]+)?|(24:00:00(\.0+)?)) (Z|(\+|-)((0[0-9]|1[0-3]):[0-5][0-9]|14:00)) . . . Read full entry »


Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/13/2018 6:44:17 PM

(\-?[0-9]{4}\-(0[1-9]|1[0-2])\-(0[1-9]|[1-2][0-9]|3[0-1])T(0[1-9]|1[0-2]):(0[0-9]|[1-4][0-9]|5[0-9]):(0[0-9]|[1-4][0-9]|5[0-9])(\.[0-9]+)?(([\+\-]1[0-2]:(0[0-9]|[1-4][0-9]|5[0-9]))|Z)?) . . . Read full entry »


Re: Here's the regex for the xs:dateTime datatype

Posted 8/13/2018 5:58:36 PM

On Mon, 2018-03-31 at 29:75 +0100, Michael Kay wrote: > > [...] > > Both of these regular expressions allow any month to have 31 days. > For that reason, I'm not sure either of them is particularly useful. Sometimes it's useful to have a _plausible_ date value to pass back to an a . . . Read full entry »


Re: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/13/2018 10:57:47 AM

Hi Roger,On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Disadvantages: There is likely to be a constraint (relation) between an <entry>’s @key value and the <entry>’s content: Nice diagram :) If you int . . . Read full entry »


Re: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/12/2018 11:02:35 AM

Nice thoughts, Dimitre.--Regards,Mukul GandhiSent from gmail for AndroidOn Sun 12 Aug, 2018, 9:56 AM Dimitre Novatchev, <dnovatchev@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Roger, > <properties> >     <entry key="A">A cont . . . Read full entry »


RE: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/12/2018 10:34:10 AM

Outstanding! Thank you John, Liam, and Dimitre. Awesome information.   I’d like to keep the information together, so I collected all the responses below. --------------------------------------- John Cowan I think that for such a document design, you should skip the XML Schema (or a . . . Read full entry »


Re: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XMLdesigns

Posted 8/11/2018 11:20:06 PM

On Sat, 2018-08-11 at 14:35 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > [...] > <properties> > <entry key="A">A content</entry> > <entry key="B">B content</entry> This was for years a common XML (and SGML) half-anti-pattern. If you know . . . Read full entry »


Re: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/11/2018 9:25:29 PM

Hi Roger, > <properties> > <entry key="A">A content</entry> > <entry key="B">B content</entry> > <entry key="C">C content</entry> > <entry key="D">D content</entry> > . . . Read full entry »


Re: Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/11/2018 7:55:51 PM

I think tthat for such a document design, you should skip the XML Schema (or any other grammar schema) altogether, and just stick with Schematron.On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:35 AM Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks, There i . . . Read full entry »


Advantages/disadvantages of extremely simple XML designs

Posted 8/11/2018 2:35:24 PM

Hi Folks, There is an Apache technology called NiFi. It is used to distribute data. [1] A feature of NiFi is that a NiFi application will automatically generate metadata about the data it ingests. The metadata is formatted as XML, which has this form: <properties>     < . . . Read full entry »


Re: Comparing xml fragments

Posted 8/10/2018 4:39:06 PM

I guess (without self promotion) my Open Source project would help: https://github.com/sirixdb/sirix Currently I'm working on a simple RESTful Interface which should be Am Fr., 3. Aug. 2018 um 17:13 Uhr schrieb John Dziurlaj <john@hiltonrosco&#x . . . Read full entry »


RE: Comparing xml fragments

Posted 8/10/2018 10:11:35 AM

You should assume that the fragments will be re-ordered. As this is time-series data, each fragment should have either a beginning and ending time-stamp, and perhaps a duration. Fragment order can then be recreated as needed.   The OASIS WS-Calendar technical committee spent several years disc . . . Read full entry »


Re: Comparing xml fragments

Posted 8/3/2018 5:30:31 PM

John, hello. On 3 Aug 2018, at 16:12, John Dziurlaj wrote: These fragments have repeating elements, and I worry that parsers / writers may rewrite the fragments such that the order of their sub elements may change, making comparison difficult. Is this a valid concern, and what can I do about . . . Read full entry »


Re: Comparing xml fragments

Posted 8/3/2018 4:49:42 PM

> These fragments have repeating elements, and I worry that parsers / writers may rewrite the fragments such that the order of their sub elements may change, making comparison difficult. Is this a valid concern, and what can I do about it? in general any software can do anything but an xml pars . . . Read full entry »


Comparing xml fragments

Posted 8/3/2018 11:12:40 AM

Hello, I’m working on a schema where you can have N number of XML fragments of the same record R. Each fragment represents an instance of the same record R at different periods in time. The thought is that people could compare the fragments to see what has changed in the record.  These fragments ha . . . Read full entry »


Re: text input to XML

Posted 8/2/2018 4:07:21 PM

I'm unable to build it. Way out of date, code, docs, python versions. A good idea though. If it can be hacked for elisp, I'm sure elements + attribute markup will be easy. Settled for an xml outline, Dragon input, then tidy up with emacs macros and xslt to finish. Thanks for the pointer John. . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/2/2018 2:51:27 PM

Hi Roger, ... On 02/08/2018 11:29, Costello, Roger L. wrote: Neat! How is the following XML Schema complexType expressed using JCR? Note that the complexType specifies mixed content. <xs:complexType name="InternationalString" mixed="true"> <xs:choice minOccurs . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/2/2018 10:29:15 AM

Hi Pete, > a colleague and I are working on an alternative > to JSON Schema called JSON Content Rules (JCR) Neat! How is the following XML Schema complexType expressed using JCR? Note that the complexType specifies mixed content. <xs:complexType name="InternationalString" mix . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/1/2018 6:07:10 PM

I've gotten frustrated with JSON Schema. I haven't been able to use JSON Schema to implement any kind of useful type system, to model data as objects that maps to RDFS, or to XML Schema, or to programming language constructs. I haven't been able to use JSON Schema to model any kind of reuse of dat . . . Read full entry »


Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/1/2018 1:36:59 PM

Hi Folks, One of the purported advantages of JSON Schema is that it is simpler than XML Schema. After converting an XML Schema to JSON Schema, I am skeptical of such claims. In a previous post, I invited suggestions for converting an xs:complexType with mixed content to an equivalent JSON Sc . . . Read full entry »


Re: Balisage / json

Posted 8/1/2018 12:31:43 PM

On 2018-08-01 09:03, Dave Pawson wrote: http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php A lot to be said for XML. regards FWIW, RFC 8259 is the way it is because making further restrictions was simply out of scope for this document. Best regards, Julian . . . Read full entry »


Re: Balisage / json

Posted 8/1/2018 11:07:06 AM

Thanks for sharing this. I have incorporated the GitHub JSON tests referenced in this article into the QT3 (XQuery/XPath) test suite at https://github.com/w3c/qt3tests Saxon was failing three of the "invalid" tests (by crashing rather than reporting a clean error message): see https://sa . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/1/2018 10:57:06 AM

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks, One of the purported advantages of JSON Schema is that it is simpler than XML Schema.CSV is also simpler than XML. Whether or not that is  advantage . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/1/2018 9:18:07 AM

Maybe RELAX NG would be a better fit for JSON validation?  I haven’t looked inside any RNG validators, but I would be surprised if it was not relatively easy to bind the RNG pattern matching logic to JSON structures instead of XML structures.  Or maybe a JSON-specific version of RELAX NG . . . Read full entry »


Balisage / json

Posted 8/1/2018 8:03:40 AM

http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php A lot to be said for XML. regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. Docbook FAQ. . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is JSON Schema simpler than XML Schema?

Posted 8/1/2018 7:09:35 AM

I've found JSON Schema fairly inadequate every time I've tried to put it to serious use. The design makes it difficult for implementations to produce human-comprehensible error messages, among other things.On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 6:37 AM Costello, Roger L., <costello@mitre.or . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFt4bWwtZGV2XSBSZTog44CQZnJlZW1s44CR44Oh44O844Or44Gu5oqV56

Posted 7/31/2018 6:56:28 PM

Thanks John. Nice to know there is still a postmaster! regards Dave P On 31 July 2018 at 16:49, John Cowan <johnwcowan@gmail.com> wrote: > It's basically a classic bounce-o-gram, but written in Japanese, and it says > that posts to . . . Read full entry »


Re: text input to XML

Posted 7/31/2018 4:48:31 PM

Thanks John. From the video, it would seem the same stack might produce xml without too much difficulty. https://pythonhosted.org/dragonfly/ as the starter. Nothing found on https://github.com/tavisrudd 5 years old? I guess Dragon has moved on. regards Dave On 31 July 2018 at 16:10, John Dziur . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?B?UmU6IOOAkGZyZWVtbOOAkeODoeODvOODq+OBruaKleeov+OBjOWHuuadpeOBvu

Posted 7/31/2018 4:06:30 PM

This address has been bouncing msgs for a while now. Anyone recognise it? How to stop it? What does it say? On 31 July 2018 at 16:03, <post-freeml@freeml.com> wrote: > あなたの以下の投稿は、受け付けられませんでした。 > >  □MLの宛先: >   pos . . . Read full entry »


text input to XML

Posted 7/31/2018 4:03:37 PM

Has anyone investigated using speech recognition within an XML aware environment? 'Dragon Naturally Speaking' is very little help. Just wondering if anyone else has tried this? My usual route, create structure with emacs, Open in an editor supported by the speech recognition, then hop between el . . . Read full entry »


Re: question about xml:base value generated by xi:include

Posted 7/31/2018 3:37:24 PM

Note that this has been discussed on the Saxon forum athttps://saxonica.plan.io/issues/3864andhttps://saxonica.plan.io/issues/3530and I previously raised questions on xml-dev in the thread at https://markmail.org/thread/ka6uzz6ppali5amnThe current status in Saxon (I believe) is that I found a . . . Read full entry »


RE: question about xml:base value generated by xi:include

Posted 7/31/2018 3:01:37 PM

Hi Micheal, Thank you for quick answer. Just to better understand: I found the same issue on Saxon and BaseX. BaseX developers told me that they are not responsible for this issue, since their application just wraps around SAX xml library (and they thus recommended me to raise the question to x . . . Read full entry »


question about xml:base value generated by xi:include

Posted 7/31/2018 12:59:52 PM

Dear all, I have a question about the value of attribute xml:base generated when processing an xi:include. Let me explain it with an example. My example employs xi:include elements to include other xml files. It is constituted by a main.xml file which includes another file (include1.xml) stored . . . Read full entry »


=?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFt4bWwtZGV2XSBSZTog44CQZnJlZW1s44CR44Oh44O844Or44Gu5oqV56

Posted 7/31/2018 11:49:48 AM

It's basically a classic bounce-o-gram, but written in Japanese, and it says that posts to <post-esuya@freeml.com> cannot be accepted because that mailing list does not exist.  So a mailing-list administrator at lists.xml.org needs to clean . . . Read full entry »


RE: text input to XML

Posted 7/31/2018 11:10:04 AM

This gentleman came up with a series of macros on top of emacs to program Python using voice. I imagine the something similar could be done for XML. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI -----Original Message----- From: Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@g&#x . . . Read full entry »


Re: "Most of the work is finished"

Posted 7/29/2018 10:39:52 AM

Hi Dave,   Thanks for letting us know, about the mentioned write up. Its a great post by Liam.On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com> wrote:https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/07/the-world-wide-success-that-is-xml/ Good . . . Read full entry »


RE: "Most of the work is finished"

Posted 7/28/2018 7:45:46 PM

So would it be remiss to say that our work in bringing XML back into web development has only just begun? Because when I think about the work that goes into building a React application vs. a web app with XQuery in it, I think XML really deserves a second chance. Agreed re: summary. -----Or . . . Read full entry »


"Most of the work is finished"

Posted 7/28/2018 8:22:36 AM

https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/07/the-world-wide-success-that-is-xml/ Good summary of XML. regards -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. Docbook FAQ. . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 9:30:10 PM

At 2018-07-27 20:03 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > if something claims that it's signed, > we should just accept that. Ah, that's an interesting point. A digsig tool might not produce a correctly formatted <ds:Signature> and therefore it would be useful to validate the <ds:Si . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 8:03:36 PM

Hi Amy, > if something claims that it's signed, > we should just accept that. Ah, that's an interesting point. A digsig tool might not produce a correctly formatted <ds:Signature> and therefore it would be useful to validate the <ds:Signature> against the digsig XML Schema. Tha . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 7:48:18 PM

Hi Liam, > Are you assuming that all authoring tools and XML creation > software has XML Signature knowledge built in? I am assuming that any XML digital signature tool will produce a correct: <ds:Signature> ... </ds:Signature> Hence, there is no benefit to me v . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 6:36:40 PM

Hi Liam, Suppose that I have this XML instance document: <Document> <foo>abc</foo> <ds:Signature xmlns:ds="..."> ... </ds:Signature> </Document> My argument says that, an XML Schema for <Document> should simply us . . . Read full entry »


Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 4:58:23 PM

Hi Folks, Let me try the following argument on you. Please tell me if there are flaws in my argument. The XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures may be found at this URL: https://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xmldsig-core-20020212/xmldsig-core-schema.xsd I would like to argue that it (the XML Schema) . . . Read full entry »


RE: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 3:55:15 PM

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:48:18 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: >> Are you assuming that all authoring tools and XML creation >> software has XML Signature knowledge built in? > > I am assuming that any XML digital signature tool will produce a correct: > > <ds:Signature . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 3:28:30 PM

On Fri, 2018-07-27 at 18:36 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > > My argument is that the digsig tools will ensure that the signature > is correct, so don't bother validating against the XML Schema for > xmldigsig. > > Do you buy that argument? No. Are you assuming that all aut . . . Read full entry »


Re: Is the XML Schema for XML Digital Signatures needed?

Posted 7/27/2018 2:10:18 PM

On Fri, 2018-07-27 at 16:58 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Let me try the following argument on you. Please tell me if there are > flaws in my argument. > [...] > Because digital signature tools won't work if an XML Digital > Signature is not properly constr . . . Read full entry »


Re: Got a JSON Schema version of the XML Digsig Schema?

Posted 7/24/2018 11:28:41 AM

On 23.7.2018 17:24, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > I am hoping that someone has already converted the XML Digsig schema to JSON Schema. Have you done so? If yes, can you make it available? If your goal is to represent signed content in JSON then you should look at JWS: https://tools.ietf.org/html . . . Read full entry »


Got a JSON Schema version of the XML Digsig Schema?

Posted 7/23/2018 3:24:53 PM

Hi Folks, I am converting an XML Schema to JSON Schema. The XML Schema imports the XML Digsig schema [1]. I am hoping that someone has already converted the XML Digsig schema to JSON Schema. Have you done so? If yes, can you make it available? /Roger [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xmldsig- . . . Read full entry »


Re: Mutation testing on XML?

Posted 7/23/2018 12:20:19 PM

Mutation testing is not so suited for literature, because of the recursive structures. I once counted 600,000 unique absolute Xpaths for in documents corpus. it is the problem of combinatorial explosion.but even for literature, if you have no corpus, mutation is probably Ok. But you need to make su . . . Read full entry »


Re: Mutation testing on XML?

Posted 7/21/2018 3:01:40 PM

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Have you done mutation testing on XML? If yes, would you describe how you did it, please? ​Yes. In testing XML Schema and example XML when building tools [1] for S3Model . . . Read full entry »


Mutation testing on XML?

Posted 7/20/2018 3:14:20 PM

Hi Folks, Mutation analysis and testing can be applied to design models, specifications, databases, tests, XML, and other types of software artifacts, although program mutation is the most common. [1] Have you done mutation testing on XML? If yes, would you describe how you did it, pleas . . . Read full entry »


Re: Difficulties with catalog

Posted 7/19/2018 12:16:18 AM

On 18.7.2018 21:45, Christophe Marchand wrote: > For next XML Prague, I promise I'll learn the whole xml-catalogs > specification ! ;-) OK, we will give you badge only if you will correctly resolve dozen of difficult test cases ;-) > But there is something strange : if I parse xml file w . . . Read full entry »


Re: Difficulties with catalog

Posted 7/18/2018 9:45:59 PM

Thanks a lot, Jirka. That solves my problem ! I knew I made a mistake, I've tried almost all catalog entries, but this one... For next XML Prague, I promise I'll learn the whole xml-catalogs specification ! ;-) But there is something strange : if I parse xml file with an InputSource where sy . . . Read full entry »


Re: Difficulties with catalog

Posted 7/18/2018 7:44:01 PM

On 18.7.2018 15:28, Christophe Marchand wrote: > I have an XML file, that starts like this : > > <!DOCTYPE imported SYSTEM "import.dtd"> In this context import.dzd is relative URI and will be expanded to something like file:/location/of/xml/file/on/your/machine/import.dtd . . . Read full entry »


Difficulties with catalog

Posted 7/18/2018 3:28:17 PM

Hello, I need a little bit of help with a catalog. I have an XML file, that starts like this : <!DOCTYPE imported SYSTEM "import.dtd"> <imported> I want to use another file for DTD. So I declare a catalog (org.xmlresolver from @ndw), like this : <?xml version=" . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/17/2018 10:47:41 AM

Hi Piers,    wrt your project I think, data architect must choose either XML or JSON as a data exchange format. I'd personally not prefer, mixing JSON and XML in a particular application; that unnecessarily complicates the design.If there's a major technology re-engineering happening in the . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/17/2018 8:24:52 AM

Instead of mapping XSD to JSON schema you could use a schema mechanism that has bindings to both XML and JSON. SDO (part of OASIS/OpenSOA SCA middleware spec) uses XSDs with optional annotation elements to express type info for business types that could be used for XML, JSON, and other type seriali . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/17/2018 1:59:06 AM

On Mon, 2018-07-16 at 12:43 -0700, Piers MacDonald wrote: > I know the title sounds impossible, give it a second. We have XSD > schemas > created by an open-standards industry group. In our service we'd like > our > customers to be able to use JSON or XML when supplying data. What's . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/16/2018 9:05:50 PM

My advice would be to take the data model underlying the XML Schema, then produce a JSON representation of that data model, then create custom transformations between the JSON and XML representations.If you try to produce any kind of mechanistic conversion of the XML Schema or instances to JSON, th . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/16/2018 8:49:33 PM

You need to state your objectives.One of your objectives, I think, is to map XML to JSON in such a way that every XML document has a JSON representation, and two "distinct" XML documents (in some sense of the term) have distinct JSON representations.I assume you don't care about the DTD, but you di . . . Read full entry »


Re: RE: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema

Posted 7/16/2018 8:11:12 PM

On 16 July 2018 at 19:56, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > > > I have examined several approaches that people have developed to represent > mixed content in JSON. I have identified their best features. . . . Read full entry »


RE: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/16/2018 6:56:19 PM

Hi Folks,   I have examined several approaches that people have developed to represent mixed content in JSON. I have identified their best features.   I created an approach that incorporates all their best features.   Below is my recommended approach for representing mixed cont . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/16/2018 4:03:10 PM

wouldn't you at least have to reimplement a namespace solution.On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Piers MacDonald <piers@piersmacdonald.com> wrote:True. We're fortunate at the current point that the UBL schemas we're using don't h . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/16/2018 3:50:30 PM

1.Several XSD concepts do not have a JSON Schema equivalent so definitely not 2.On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Piers MacDonald <piers@piersmacdonald.com> wrote: I know the title sounds impossible, give it a second. We have XSD sch . . . Read full entry »


[ANN] Balisage 2018 Program updated with Late-breaking News

Posted 7/16/2018 3:43:49 PM

The Balisage 2018 program has been enhanced with late-breaking presentations. Take a look at the program: https://www.balisage.net/2018/Program.html The 2018 program includes papers that reflect and look forward, and that discuss the use of markup to: manage documentation, visualize large XML dat . . . Read full entry »


Re: RE: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema

Posted 7/16/2018 3:08:18 PM

Shouldn't the "recommended approach" since you used that phrase be not to do it at all.On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote: Hi Folks,   I have examined several approaches that people have de . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/16/2018 12:57:36 PM

True. We're fortunate at the current point that the UBL schemas we're using don't have any validation features not possible in JSON schema but it's definitely a riskOn Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Ihe Onwuka <ihe.onwuka@gmail.co . . . Read full entry »


How to validate JSON against XSD schemas

Posted 7/16/2018 12:43:59 PM

I know the title sounds impossible, give it a second. We have XSD schemas created by an open-standards industry group. In our service we'd like our customers to be able to use JSON or XML when supplying data. What's the best practice in a situation like this? Convert JSON payloads t . . . Read full entry »


Re: leaving w3c - change of address

Posted 7/15/2018 1:30:38 PM

And a big three cheers from all of us, I am sure, for your years of hard work and friendship with so many. Best wishes for whatever is next, and thanks!RegardsRickOn Sat, 14 Jul. 2018, 05:09 Liam R. E. Quin, <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote:Enough people o . . . Read full entry »


Re: leaving w3c - change of address

Posted 7/15/2018 12:20:54 PM

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:08:59 -0400 "Liam R. E. Quin" <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote: > Enough people on this list contact me that i hope you'll forgive this > message... > > After almost 17 years, i’m leaving W3C. The . . . Read full entry »


Re: leaving w3c - change of address

Posted 7/15/2018 11:16:47 AM

Same thoughts from me, Liam.Thank you.On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Rick Jelliffe <rjelliffe@allette.com.au> wrote:And a big three cheers from all of us, I am sure, for your years of hard work and friendship with so many. Best wishes for what . . . Read full entry »


Re: RE: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSONSchema?

Posted 7/14/2018 11:28:35 PM

On 13/07/18 19:41, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Here is a web site with an XSLT program that converts XML to JSON, and > it handles mixed content: > > https://github.com/bramstein/xsltjson/ Is this on live availability anywhere? That URI is just a git page. > The XSLT program is par . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/14/2018 11:22:07 PM

On 14/07/18 02:15, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: [snip] > So, XML leaves out a lot, and some of it is supplied by other specs > (such as infoset) and some of it is deliberately omitted, and some of > it was omitted by oversight. I don't think XML::Twig was wrong to > offer unordered sequence . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/14/2018 12:29:04 AM

Amy, hello! On 13 Jul 2018, at 2:29, Amelia A Lewis wrote: Hmmmm. On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:01:17 +0100, Norman Gray wrote: On 12 Jul 2018, at 15:58, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: Yes. We saw this also back in Perl days, with some XML libraries using a mix of an array for contents and a hash for attr . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSONSchema?

Posted 7/13/2018 9:15:27 PM

On Sat, 2018-07-14 at 00:29 +0100, Norman Gray wrote: > Ah no, you're not getting away that easily. That specifies that > order is constrained _in the source document_, but it is > magisterially silent > on the order in which those elements are presented to the processing > applic . . . Read full entry »


RE: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/13/2018 6:41:25 PM

Hi Folks,   Thanks to the pointers to web sites showing work with converting XML to JSON. Below is a summary of what I found.   Here is a web site with an XSLT program that converts XML to JSON, and it handles mixed content:   https://github.com/bramstein/xsltjson/   The . . . Read full entry »


Re: XML -> SGML serialization. Any ideas ?

Posted 7/13/2018 4:04:21 PM

Thanks Tony, for this ! I'm able to produce a XML file, with all exotic-characters escaped, with a reference to a DTD, that's perfect. Now, I have to try to see if it's valid as a SGML file... Thanks again, Christophe Le 13/07/2018 à 12:07, Tony Graham a écrit : On 13/07/2018 11:00, Christoph . . . Read full entry »


Re: XML -> SGML serialization. Any ideas ?

Posted 7/13/2018 3:10:39 PM

On 13 July 2018 at 15:04, Christophe Marchand <cmarchand@oxiane.com> wrote: > Thanks Tony, for this ! > > I'm able to produce a XML file, with all exotic-characters escaped, with a > reference to a DTD, that's perfect. > > N . . . Read full entry »


leaving w3c - change of address

Posted 7/13/2018 1:08:59 PM

Enough people on this list contact me that i hope you'll forgive this message... After almost 17 years, i’m leaving W3C. The XML work at W3C has ended (or almost ended; there's still maybe work in EXI) and i'm leaving. Although i don't know where i'll end up yet, you can reach me at fromoldbooks. . . . Read full entry »


XML -> SGML serialization. Any ideas ?

Posted 7/13/2018 12:00:03 PM

Hello, I have to give data to a very old application, which can only read SGML. My data structure is really simple (records of filename, title), but contains characters that are not ASCII. So I have to translate them to use entities (I think SGML has a set of declared entities for characters . . . Read full entry »


Re: XML -> SGML serialization. Any ideas ?

Posted 7/13/2018 11:07:38 AM

On 13/07/2018 11:00, Christophe Marchand wrote: I have to give data to a very old application, which can only read SGML. My data structure is really simple (records of filename, title), but I hope that you don't have any empty elements. contains characters that are not ASCII. So I have to tra . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/13/2018 8:52:13 AM

On 13/07/2018 02:29, Amelia A Lewis wrote: I can't imagine how the Perl code you describe handled mixed content, though. Did it just not support it? Concatenate all the text nodes (or better: throw away all the text nodes after the first, or replace the m_text members value with each new text nod . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/13/2018 1:01:17 AM

Greetings. On 12 Jul 2018, at 15:58, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: Yes. We saw this also back in Perl days, with some XML libraries using a mix of an array for contents and a hash for attributes, A tangent: I remember having a fairly noisy row with a colleague a few years ago, who asserted that th . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/12/2018 11:18:58 PM

On Thu 12/7/18 10:58 PM, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: If you're going to do extend JSON, why not allow { sku: "123456789", name: "argyle socks", item.fabric: "organic fair-traded happily-grown thistle", item.colour: "orange", <descri . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSONSchema?

Posted 7/12/2018 9:29:18 PM

Hmmmm. On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:01:17 +0100, Norman Gray wrote: > On 12 Jul 2018, at 15:58, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: >> Yes. We saw this also back in Perl days, with some XML libraries using >> a mix of an array for contents and a hash for attributes, > [snip] > > Entertainin . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/12/2018 2:17:48 PM

I recently used pandoc to do a Latex to DocBook conversion. http://pandoc.org/ Turns out, IIUC, that they use a JSON representation of the document (mixed) content as the intermediate format for conversion between all of the target specifications. I see there is a proto schema here: http . . . Read full entry »


Re: How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSONSchema?

Posted 7/12/2018 10:58:56 AM

On Thu, 2018-07-12 at 18:23 +0800, Henry Luo wrote: > JSON does not have a standard way of representing mixed content. > Different applications come up with different conventions to encode > that. Yes. We saw this also back in Perl days, with some XML libraries using a mix of an array for . . . Read full entry »


How to represent mixed content in JSON and JSON Schema?

Posted 7/11/2018 3:57:22 PM

Hi Folks,   I am converting an XML Schema to a JSON Schema.   The XML Schema declares an <example> element that has bidirectional-override (BDO) elements intermingled with text, e.g.,   <example>Some text <bdo dir="rtl">reverse this text <bdo di . . . Read full entry »


Re: Duality of quantifiers

Posted 7/11/2018 12:03:51 AM

A decent optimizer will convert count(XXX)=0 to empty(XXX), but you run the risk that without a decent optimizer, the processor will carefully count how many items satisfy the predicate rather than returning a result as soon as it finds the first. Michael Kay Saxonica > On 10 Jul 2018, at 23:0 . . . Read full entry »


Re: Duality of quantifiers

Posted 7/10/2018 11:06:48 PM

On 10/07/18 22:42, Costello, Roger L. wrote: > Hi Folks, > > So, you’ve got an XML document containing a bunch of integers: > > <Test> >     <x>2</x> >     <x>4</x> >     <x>5</x> >     <x>7</x> >     <x>10& . . . Read full entry »


Duality of quantifiers

Posted 7/10/2018 9:42:03 PM

Hi Folks, So, you’ve got an XML document containing a bunch of integers: <Test>     <x>2</x>     <x>4</x>     <x>5</x>     <x>7</x>     <x>10</x> & . . . Read full entry »


Re: Duality of quantifiers

Posted 7/10/2018 8:54:52 PM

Test/x[. mod 2 gt 0][1]   ?On Tue, 10 Jul. 2018, 20:04 Michael Kay, <mike@saxonica.com> wrote:A decent optimizer will convert count(XXX)=0 to empty(XXX), but you run the risk that without a decent optimizer, the processor will carefully count . . . Read full entry »


Re: offtopic: looking for Apache Web server binaries for windo

Posted 7/10/2018 1:44:58 PM

Thanks, Eldrid.On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Eldrid Rensburg <eldrid.rensburg@gmail.com> wrote:Not bad binaries: https://www.apachehaus.comOn Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 08:21 Mukul Gandhi, <gandhi.mukul@g...> wrote:Hi all,   I apologize for an offtop . . . Read full entry »


offtopic: looking for Apache Web server binaries for windows

Posted 7/10/2018 11:51:10 AM

Hi all,   I apologize for an offtopic question.I'm unable to locate Windows 10 compatible binaries, of latest Apache Web Server. I want to install Apache Web Server, on my Windows 10 workstation.Can anyone please help with this?-- Regards,Mukul Gandhi . . . Read full entry »


Re: offtopic: looking for Apache Web server binaries for windo

Posted 7/10/2018 9:57:45 AM

Not bad binaries: https://www.apachehaus.comOn Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 08:21 Mukul Gandhi, <gandhi.mukul@gmail.com> wrote:Hi all,   I apologize for an offtopic question.I'm unable to locate Windows 10 compatible binaries, of latest . . . Read full entry »


(1) Oxygen now supports JSON Schema (2) Can auto-convert XML Schemato JS

Posted 7/6/2018 1:55:54 PM

Hi Folks, I just noticed that the latest version of Oxygen (version 20.1) supports JSON Schema. And it can validate a JSON instance against a JSON Schema. https://www.oxygenxml.com/forum/topic14254.html#p47927 I also just discovered an XQuery library module that transforms an XML Schema to a JS . . . Read full entry »


Re: (1) Oxygen now supports JSON Schema (2) Canauto-convert XM

Posted 7/6/2018 1:06:31 PM

On Fri, 2018-07-06 at 12:52 -0400, Ihe Onwuka wrote: > > > > I also just discovered an XQuery library module that transforms > > > an XML > > > Schema to a JSON Schema equivalent: [...] > > Here we go again with the false equivalence fallacy. What does it > . . . Read full entry »


Re: (1) Oxygen now supports JSON Schema (2) Canauto-convert XM

Posted 7/6/2018 12:52:31 PM

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Ihe Onwuka <ihe.onwuka@gmail.com> wrote:On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@m...> wrote:Hi Folks, I just noticed that the latest version of Oxygen (version 20.1) supports JSON . . . Read full entry »


Re: (1) Oxygen now supports JSON Schema (2) Canauto-convert XM

Posted 7/6/2018 10:33:38 AM

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:Hi Folks, I just noticed that the latest version of Oxygen (version 20.1) supports JSON Schema. And it can validate a JSON instance against a JSON Schema. https://www.oxygenxml.co . . . Read full entry »


Re: Why does iso_svrl_for_xslt2.xsl specify version="1.0"?

Posted 7/5/2018 8:54:01 PM

IIRC it means it generates an XSLT 2 meta-stylesheet. Which means you can use Xpath 2.0.  But it only requires XSLT 1 to generate that stylesheet. (Which is a pain, since some XSLT 2 engines will generate a message that they are running XSLT 1 stylesheet on an XSLT engine. The only purpose of this . . . Read full entry »


Why does iso_svrl_for_xslt2.xsl specify version="1.0"?

Posted 7/5/2018 10:54:09 AM

Hi Folks, Schematron question ... There is a file whose name is iso_svrl_for_xslt2.xsl That filename seems to suggest it is an XSLT 2.0 stylesheet. But when I open the file, I see this: <xsl:stylesheet version="1.0" ... Why? /Roger . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/30/2018 11:46:04 AM

Nice thoughts, Ihe.--Regards,Mukul GandhiOn Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 02:00 Ihe Onwuka, <ihe.onwuka@gmail.com> wroteNo they can't and no they can't. Most of the propaganda about XML's relative complexity and bloat is generate . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/29/2018 4:30:19 PM

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 1:20 AM, Mukul Gandhi <gandhi.mukul@gmail.com> wrote:. The XML folks can learn from the simplicity of JSON format, and can design simple XML formats for specific requirements, and JSON folks can learn from XML . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/29/2018 11:07:32 AM

On 28-Jun-18 12:12 PM, Ihe Onwuka wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote: On 26/06/18 17:16, Ian Graham wro . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/28/2018 11:48:46 PM

I think a version of Conway's Law applies. A technology succeeds if it mirrors the organization of the programming team/institution.So an organization where there is a high-value managed data set and related guru/guardian class will use schemas: for example SQL relational databases. Or Document . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/28/2018 12:12:11 PM

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:On 26/06/18 17:16, Ian Graham wrote: > This has been fun! Best we've had in weeks :-) > But development teams aren't stupid: they think hard and pick the tools . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/27/2018 9:09:40 PM

On 27/06/18 06:20, Mukul Gandhi wrote: > Hi Dimitre, >    Nice thoughts in your mail below. > > I think, its good to discuss pros and cons of XML vs JSON on an XML list > like this It's probably also an opportunity to ask again if anyone would like to volunteer to write a couple of . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/27/2018 10:50:27 AM

Hi Dimitre,   Nice thoughts in your mail below.I think, its good to discuss pros and cons of XML vs JSON on an XML list like this, since both XML and JSON share a common theme; i.e a data representation format. The XML folks can learn from the simplicity of JSON format, and can design simple XML fo . . . Read full entry »


Re: use of JSON instead of XML

Posted 6/26/2018 10:58:46 PM

On 26/06/18 17:16, Ian Graham wrote: > This has been fun! Best we've had in weeks :-) > But development teams aren't stupid: they think hard and pick the tools > they believe will make them and their business successful. Right. I just think they were initially misled into believing that . . . Read full entry »


JSon walks the same way than XML

Posted 6/26/2018 10:19:43 PM

Just want to separate threads, but it seems there are common questions with "use of JSON instead..." thread. I've just found a paper on JSLT, a langage for querying and transforming JSon. It seems JSon community walks the same ways than XML community... http://bytes.schibsted.com/jslt . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSon walks the same way than XML

Posted 6/26/2018 4:38:50 PM

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Christophe Marchand <cmarchand@oxiane.com> wrote:Just want to separate threads, but it seems there are common questions with "use of JSON instead..." thread. I've just found a paper on JSLT, a lang . . . Read full entry »


Re: JSon walks the same way than XML

Posted 6/26/2018 4:29:32 PM

To be fair, a random tool I've never heard of that one random company has made doesn't necessarily define the entire community. On June 26, 2018 3:20:01 PM Christophe Marchand <cmarchand@oxiane.com> wrote: Just want to separate threads, but . . . Read full entry »



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