Version 1.0-pre-2 of XML Zebra is now available.  It adds support for  
substitution groups, and you can now set namespace prefixes via the  
command line.

https://launchpad.net/xmlzebra/+announcement/5072

Cheers, Tony.

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:16:39 -0000, Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev)  
<abcoatesecure-xmldev@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the  
> differences
> between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
> Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you  
> create
> a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an extended
> syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you  
> can
> see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools  
> makes
> use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.
>
> How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema files
> themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you not
> only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are directly
> or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
> ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
> types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
> way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
> changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
> file-change perspective.
>
> The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For more
> details, and to download it, see
>
> http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>
> There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
> conference, 13-14 March.
>
> http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>
> Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>
> Cheers, Tony.

-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

On 05/02/2010 11:32, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I am seeking the correct (or best) terminology.
>
> Suppose that in my business I need to do things with person last names. That manifests in a requirement for a<last-name>  element. So, I create an XML Schema that declares a last-name element, e.g.,
>
>        <element name="last-name" type="string" />
>
> But, that declaration is not acceptable. I do not want the value of<last-name>  to be any unbounded string. I want to constrain the value of<last-name>.
>
> I consult the experts and they inform that, for my business, last names should not be longer than 26 characters, and they should only consist of the characters a-z, A-Z, hyphen, and apostrophe.
>
> So, here is how I declare<last-name>:
>
>        <element name="last-name">
>            <simpleType>
>                <restriction base="string">
>                    <maxLength value="26" />
>                    <pattern value="[a-zA-Z'-]+" />
>                </restriction>
>            </simpleType>
>        </element>
>

Can't help but comment on how politically incorrect such a schema is.
It's (normally) better to use something like family-name rather than 
last-name if it is the family information that you want rather than the 
word that happens to come last in some conventional display order.
Also of course such a pattern restriction cuts out most of the
world's population.

http://blog.jclark.com/2007/12/thai-personal-names.html

For example


> Thus, rather than allowing the value of<last-name>  to be any string, I have restricted the values. I restricted<last-name>  to the greatest extent possible. That is, if I were to set maxLength to less than 26, to, say, 25, then my element declaration would reject some legitimate last name values. Or, if I were to omit, say, the apostrophe from the pattern facet then some legitimate values would be rejected.
>
> Okay, now to my terminology questions.
>
> QUESTION #1
>
> I constrained<last-name>  to the greatest extent possible, such that any tighter constraints would break rules of my business. What is the correct (or best) term for "the greatest extent possible?" How would you fill in this blank?
>
>        ________ constraint
>
> Here are some terms that came to mind:
>
>        Maximum constraint
>        Maximal constraint
>        Tightest constraint
>        Strongest constraint
>

I'd say strongest (but also strongly advise that the business rule is 
changed)

> Which is the correct (or best) term: maximum, maximal, tightest, or strongest? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?
>
>
> QUESTION #2
>
> My XML Schema declaration expresses the limitations on the value of this element:
>
>        <last-name>____________</last-name>
>
> What is the correct (or best) term for "limitations?" How would you fill in this blank?
>
>        ________ on the value
>
> Here are some terms that came to mind:
>
>        Constraints on the value
>        Restrictions on the value
>        Limitations on the value
>
> Which is the correct (or best) term: constraints, restrictions, or limitations? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?
>

any of those (probably I wouldn't use the last).

>
> QUESTION #3
>
> Are constraints *applied* to elements? Or, are constraints *imposed* on elements? How would you fill in the blank?
>
>        ________ constraints
>
> Here are some terms that came to mind:
>
>        Apply constraints
>        Impose constraints
>
> Which is the correct (or best) term: apply or impose? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?
If you are only doing schema validation you are not forcing the data to 
conform to the constraint, just reporting whether it does or not, so I'd 
say the schema processor reports whether or not the constraints are 
violated. Or more simply just use the terminology given and say the 
schema processor validates the document.
>
>
> /Roger

David
> _______________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.

This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is
powered by MessageLabs. 
________________________________________________________________________

Hi Folks,

I am seeking the correct (or best) terminology.

Suppose that in my business I need to do things with person last names. That manifests in a requirement for a <last-name> element. So, I create an XML Schema that declares a last-name element, e.g.,

      <element name="last-name" type="string" />

But, that declaration is not acceptable. I do not want the value of <last-name> to be any unbounded string. I want to constrain the value of <last-name>.

I consult the experts and they inform that, for my business, last names should not be longer than 26 characters, and they should only consist of the characters a-z, A-Z, hyphen, and apostrophe.

So, here is how I declare <last-name>:

      <element name="last-name">
          <simpleType>
              <restriction base="string">
                  <maxLength value="26" />
                  <pattern value="[a-zA-Z'-]+" />
              </restriction>
          </simpleType>
      </element>

Thus, rather than allowing the value of <last-name> to be any string, I have restricted the values. I restricted <last-name> to the greatest extent possible. That is, if I were to set maxLength to less than 26, to, say, 25, then my element declaration would reject some legitimate last name values. Or, if I were to omit, say, the apostrophe from the pattern facet then some legitimate values would be rejected.

Okay, now to my terminology questions.

QUESTION #1

I constrained <last-name> to the greatest extent possible, such that any tighter constraints would break rules of my business. What is the correct (or best) term for "the greatest extent possible?" How would you fill in this blank?

      ________ constraint

Here are some terms that came to mind:

      Maximum constraint
      Maximal constraint
      Tightest constraint
      Strongest constraint

Which is the correct (or best) term: maximum, maximal, tightest, or strongest? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?


QUESTION #2

My XML Schema declaration expresses the limitations on the value of this element:

      <last-name>____________</last-name>

What is the correct (or best) term for "limitations?" How would you fill in this blank?

      ________ on the value

Here are some terms that came to mind:

      Constraints on the value
      Restrictions on the value
      Limitations on the value

Which is the correct (or best) term: constraints, restrictions, or limitations? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?


QUESTION #3

Are constraints *applied* to elements? Or, are constraints *imposed* on elements? How would you fill in the blank?

      ________ constraints

Here are some terms that came to mind:

      Apply constraints
      Impose constraints

Which is the correct (or best) term: apply or impose? Or, perhaps there's another term that I haven't considered?


/Roger

If already working with "tidy" this little shell script might be useful:

#!/bin/bash
tidy -q -xml $1 >/tmp/tmp.1.xml
tidy -q -xml $2 >/tmp/tmp.2.xml
diff /tmp/tmp.1.xml /tmp/tmp.2.xml



Mit besten Gruessen / Best wishes,

Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt
Developer, XML Compiler, L3
WebSphere DataPower SOA Appliances
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IBM Deutschland Research & Development GmbH
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Martin Jetter
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dirk Wittkopp
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Boeblingen
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 243294
----- Forwarded by Hermann Stamm-Wilbrandt/Germany/IBM on 02/03/2010 02:48
PM -----
                                                                           
             Farrukh Najmi                                                 
             <farrukh@wellflee                                             
             tsoftware.com>                                             To 
                                       Rick Jelliffe                       
             02/02/2010 06:13          <rjelliffe@allette.com.au>          
             PM                                                         cc 
                                       xml-dev List                        
                                       <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>             
                                                                   Subject 
                                       Re:  Open source XML       
                                       instance diff tool                  
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           





For my needs the xmlunit tool may actually be the best as it gives an
XPATH for each difference found:

<http://xmlunit.sourceforge.net/>

Thanks again for the help.

Farrukh Najmi wrote:
>
> The diffx project definitely look better than others [1] I have seen.
> Thanks Rick!
>
> [1] https://diffxml.dev.java.net/
>
> Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>> DiffX ?
>>
>>    http://sourceforge.net/projects/diffx/
>>
>> Probably better for smaller than larger documents.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Rick Jelliffe
>>
>> Farrukh Najmi wrote:
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> I am looking for a decent open source diff tool for XML instance
>>> documents. I realize this has come up before but I did not find
>>> anything that I could use in the archives.
>>>
>>> The ideal tool would have:
>>>
>>>     * Java library
>>>     * A liberal open source license that allows royalty-free
>>>       redistribution
>>>     * Active development
>>>     * Ability to compare two XML instance documents and give a set of
>>>       differences where each difference identifies the XPATH to
>>>       element or attribute that is different
>>>     * Namespace awareness
>>>
>
>


--
Regards,
Farrukh

Web: http://www.wellfleetsoftware.com



_______________________________________________________________________

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DiffX ?

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/diffx/

Probably better for smaller than larger documents.

Cheers
Rick Jelliffe

Farrukh Najmi wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am looking for a decent open source diff tool for XML instance 
> documents. I realize this has come up before but I did not find 
> anything that I could use in the archives.
>
> The ideal tool would have:
>
>     * Java library
>     * A liberal open source license that allows royalty-free
>       redistribution
>     * Active development
>     * Ability to compare two XML instance documents and give a set of
>       differences where each difference identifies the XPATH to
>       element or attribute that is different
>     * Namespace awareness
>
>
> Thank you for sharing any epxerience with such a tool
> -- 
> Regards,
> Farrukh
>
> Web: http://www.wellfleetsoftware.com
>
>   
> _______________________________________________________________________ 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to 
> support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the 
> archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change 
> address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: 
> xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org subscribe: 
> xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: 
> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php 

Hi,

I am pleased to announce the availability of Apache Xerces-C++ 3.1.0.
Xerces-C++ is an open-source, validating XML parser written in a
portable subset of C++. It provides DOM (level 1, 2, and 3), SAX,
and SAX2 APIs and supports validation of XML documents against DTD
and XML Schema.

This version includes a number of new features, performance improvements 
and a large number of bug fixes, especially in the XML Schema spec 
conformance area, including:

 * Support for handling multiple XML Schema import declarations with 
   the same target namespace.

 * Support for configuration of the parser buffer low water mark.

 * DOMLSParser::parseWithContext implementation.

 * Improved XML Schema performance and reduced memory footprint when 
   validating with large maxOccurs values. If available, the SSE2 
   instructions are used to further speedup this case.

 * Improved scalability of the XML Schema identity checking (key, 
   keyref, and unique).

 * More robust external library detection (libcurl and ICU).

 * Compilation of the ICU message loader resources no longer depends 
   on the ICU implementation details.

For a more detailed list of changes see the official announcement:

http://marc.info/?l=xerces-c-dev&m=126502748921483&w=2

For more information on some of the new features see this blog post:

http://www.codesynthesis.com/~boris/blog/2010/02/02/xerces-cxx-3-1-0-released

This release has been tested on all major platforms and comes with 
precompiled libraries (total 16) for various CPU architectures, 
operating systems, and C++ compilers. For most platforms 32-bit and 
64-bit variants are provided.

More information on Xerces-C++, including documentation and build
instructions, is available from the project's website:

http://xerces.apache.org/xerces-c/

The source code archives and precompiled binaries are available from
the download page:

http://xerces.apache.org/xerces-c/download.cgi

Boris

-- 
Boris Kolpackov, Code Synthesis        http://codesynthesis.com/~boris/blog
Open-source XML data binding for C++   http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsd
XML data binding for embedded systems  http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsde
Command line interface to C++ compiler http://codesynthesis.com/projects/cli

For my needs the xmlunit tool may actually be the best as it gives an 
XPATH for each difference found:

<http://xmlunit.sourceforge.net/>

Thanks again for the help.

Farrukh Najmi wrote:
>
> The diffx project definitely look better than others [1] I have seen. 
> Thanks Rick!
>
> [1] https://diffxml.dev.java.net/
>
> Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>> DiffX ?
>>
>>    http://sourceforge.net/projects/diffx/
>>
>> Probably better for smaller than larger documents.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Rick Jelliffe
>>
>> Farrukh Najmi wrote:
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> I am looking for a decent open source diff tool for XML instance 
>>> documents. I realize this has come up before but I did not find 
>>> anything that I could use in the archives.
>>>
>>> The ideal tool would have:
>>>
>>>     * Java library
>>>     * A liberal open source license that allows royalty-free
>>>       redistribution
>>>     * Active development
>>>     * Ability to compare two XML instance documents and give a set of
>>>       differences where each difference identifies the XPATH to
>>>       element or attribute that is different
>>>     * Namespace awareness
>>>
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Farrukh

Web: http://www.wellfleetsoftware.com

Qizx Free Engine can be downloaded from
http://www.xmlmind.com/qizx/download.shtml

Qizx/open can be downloaded from
http://www.xmlmind.com/qizx/qizxopen.shtml

Qizx customers, please upgrade using this form:
http://www.xmlmind.com/store/download.php

(The above form is usually accessed through
http://www.xmlmind.com/qizx/upgrade.html.)

               -------------

Qizx is an embeddable, high-speed, native XML
indexing and query engine written in Java(TM),
with the querying and processing capabilities
of a fully fledged XML Query implementation.


What is new in version 3.1:
---------------------------

* Simplified full-text query syntax.

* Full-text convenience functions for scoring,
   highlighting, extracting document snippets,
   looking up indexes.

* Improved full-text scoring.

* Upgraded XQuery Update support (complies with
   June 2009 Recommendation)

Please visit http://www.xmlmind.com/qizx/changes.html
for more details.

               -------------

Qizx is available in several editions:

* The commercial product has 3 liberal licenses
   both for corporate application development, and
   for royalty-free distributable products.

* The Free Engine edition is a fully functional
   version of Qizx which can be used for developing
   or in production.  It is limited in database
   size (one gigabyte of XML approximately).

* Qizx/open is an open-source version of the XML
   Query interpreter of Qizx.  Qizx/open has been
   available since 2003 and is recognized as one
   of the most advanced and fastest XML Query
   implementations.

Please visit http://www.xmlmind.com/qizx/ for more
information about Qizx.



--
Qizx Information List
qizx-announce@xmlmind.com
http://www.xmlmind.com/mailman/listinfo/qizx-announce

The diffx project definitely look better than others [1] I have seen. 
Thanks Rick!

[1] https://diffxml.dev.java.net/

Rick Jelliffe wrote:
> DiffX ?
>
>    http://sourceforge.net/projects/diffx/
>
> Probably better for smaller than larger documents.
>
> Cheers
> Rick Jelliffe
>
> Farrukh Najmi wrote:
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> I am looking for a decent open source diff tool for XML instance 
>> documents. I realize this has come up before but I did not find 
>> anything that I could use in the archives.
>>
>> The ideal tool would have:
>>
>>     * Java library
>>     * A liberal open source license that allows royalty-free
>>       redistribution
>>     * Active development
>>     * Ability to compare two XML instance documents and give a set of
>>       differences where each difference identifies the XPATH to
>>       element or attribute that is different
>>     * Namespace awareness
>>


-- 
Regards,
Farrukh

Web: http://www.wellfleetsoftware.com

XML Prague 2010 Speakers confirmed

We can finally announce speakers for upcoming XML Prague 2010

http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/sessions.html

* Sharon Adler

* Robin Berjon - Multimedia XML

* George Cristian Bina - Schema-aware editing

* Benjamin Bock - Topic Maps run from XML and is coming back with Flowers

* Anthony Coates - "Full Impact" Schema Differencing

* Daniela Florescu - Extending XQuery with collections, indexes and
integrity constraints

* Ghislain Fourny - XQuery in the Browser (Demo)

* Florent Georges - EXPath: Packaging, and Web applications

* Tony Graham - Arrow to Octopus: What XSL 2.0 means for implementers and users

* Mark Howe - Real time, all the time, ragtime XML

* Mike Kay - Streaming in XSLT 2.1

* Ari Nordström - Film Markup Language (Automating Cinemas Using XML)

* Laurens Van den Oever - Tracking Changes: Technical and UX challenges

* Dusan Petkovic - A Time Machine for XML

* Liam Quin - Future of XML at W3C

* Felix Sasaki - How to avoid suffering from markup: A project report
about the virtue of hiding XML

* Stéphane Sire - Authoring XML all the Time, Everywhere and by Everyone

* Norman Walsh - Automating Document Assembly in DocBook

We will be providing more details on the session page on the website
over the coming days.


on behalf,
XML Prague Committee
http://www.xmlprague.cz

------------------------------------------------------------------
XML Prague 2010, March 13th & 14th
http://www.xmlprague.cz
------------------------------------------------------------------

Gold Sponsors

*Mark Logic* - http://www.marklogic.com/ , Demo Jam and
post-conference training.
*FLWOR Foundation* -  http://www.flworfound.org/

Silver Sponsors
*River Valley* - http://river-valley.com/
*Xopus* -  http://xopus.com/
*oXygen XML editor* - http://www.oxygenxml.com/

Bronze Sponsors
*Data2type* - http://www.data2type.de/

Beer Station
*Jalfrezi Software Limited* - http://www.jalfrezisoftware.co.uk/

Post Conference Training : 'Practical Transformation Using XSLT,
XQuery and XPath'
More information and register at Crane Softwrights.
http://www.cranesoftwrights.com/index.html#Crane201003CZ

The overhead of sax/dom parser is large. So is it 
> reasonable to use regular expressions to parse xml?

NO, absolutely not. XML cannot be parsed correctly using regular expressions
because it is not a regular language. Parsing it incorrectly may be an
option for you, but is almost certainly a bad idea in the long term. Even if
it were an option, the overhead would be much higher than using a SAX
parser.
 
>Do jaxb or jaxp fit in my application?

JAXP offers an API to SAX and DOM parsers, so it's complementary to the
approach suggested.

JAXB is an alternative: it will have similar performance costs to DOM
parsing but (depending on the data structure) may be an easier way of
writing the application.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 15:47 -0500, ycao5@scs.carleton.ca wrote:

>       In my xml application, I want to write a small parser which can 
> include useful parts in an xml document but ignore the rest. The  
> overhead of sax/dom parser is large. So is it reasonable to use  
> regular expressions to parse xml?

A sax parser should not give you a large overhead, as it doesn't
build a tree (you do that yourself) and doesn't use much memory.

You can use regular expressions (and XML was defined with this in
mind) as long as you know there are no CDATA sections... otherwise
it tends to get too hairy too quickly to be useful.  (I am assuming
pcre/java style extended regular expressions of course).  Commented-out
markup can cause problems too.

But it is likely to be faster to use a proper native C XML parser.

A parser that builds a DOM is likely overkill if you are only using
a small fraction of the document.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org

Hello everyone,

      I have one question to ask and wish to get replies from you.

      In my xml application, I want to write a small parser which can  
include useful parts in an xml document but ignore the rest. The  
overhead of sax/dom parser is large. So is it reasonable to use  
regular expressions to parse xml? There are other tools like jaxb and  
jaxp. Do jaxb or jaxp fit in my application?


thank you.

The W3C's XML Query Working Group and XSL Working Group are pleased
to announce the availability of version 1.0.1 of the XQuery and XPath
Full Text Test Suite (XQFTTS) at
http://dev.w3.org/2007/xpath-full-text-10-test-suite/. The tests
suite contains information about how to run the test suite and how to
submit the results (anonymously, if you desire).

XQFTTS 1.0.1 fixes a number of bugs reported against XQFTTS 1.0.0 and
it reflects a small number of CR issues that have been resolved by
the WGs. We encourage implementors who have sent us reports for
XQFTTS 1.0.0 to run XQFTTS 1.0.1 and send us their final reports.
Implementors who have not yet run the XQFTTS at all are strongly
encouraged to run XQFTTF 1.0.1 and submit their implementation
reports.  The reports that we have received provide a significant
amount of the implementation experience that we need to request a
transition to Proposed Recommendation. We would especially appreciate
a report showing an implementation of Minimal Conformance using the
XQueryX syntax.

We will continue to maintain and enhance the test suite after our
transition to Proposed Recommendation. We do not expect to send out
any further announcements about our test suite -- any news or updates
will be posted on our web page.

Thanks!
     Jim

========================================================================
Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL)     Phone: +1.801.942.0144
   Chair, W3C XML Query WG; XQX (etc.) editor       Fax : +1.801.942.3345
Oracle Corporation        Oracle Email: jim dot melton at oracle dot com
1930 Viscounti Drive      Standards email: jim dot melton at acm dot org
Sandy, UT 84093-1063 USA          Personal email: jim at melton dot name
========================================================================
=  Facts are facts.   But any opinions expressed are the opinions      =
=  only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody   =
=  else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand.  =
========================================================================  

Hi Michael,

Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> writes:

> > This idea might be new to Java..
> 
> I can't see anything new about it. I can't see what it offers that all 
> the other Java-XML data binding frameworks don't.

Most data binding tools convert XML data to an in-memory object model.
In other words, they are like statically-typed and named DOM. However, 
this is not always desirable (streaming) or possible (large documents).
In such situations the "statically-typed and named SAX" approach is a 
good  alternative. The problem with Santhosh's project is that it still
revolves around the idea of building an in-memory representation.


> and once you're there, it's a very small step to XSLT...

Oh please, not this discussion again ;-).

Boris

-- 
Boris Kolpackov, Code Synthesis        http://codesynthesis.com/~boris/blog
Open-source XML data binding for C++   http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsd
XML data binding for embedded systems  http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsde
Command line interface to C++ compiler http://codesynthesis.com/projects/cli

Hi Santhosh,

Santhosh T <santhosh.tekuri@gmail.com> writes:

> http://code.google.com/p/jlibs/wiki/SAX2JavaBinding
> 
> this shows a new approach to define sax to java binding in very intutive
> manner.
> 
> your comments are welcomed;

This idea might be new to Java, though something like this has been 
available for C++ for several years now (see the C++/Parser[1] 
mapping, for example).

I also think in your architecture you miss one of the main reasons 
why people choose to use SAX over, say, DOM. Which is that they don't
want to (or cannot afford to) build an in-memory representation.
Instead, the XML data is processed as soon as it becomes available
in a pure event-driven or a partially in-memory / partially event-
driven mode. 

In this light, a callback interface like this seems like a more 
natural choice (using your Employee example):

public interface Employee {

  public void name (String name);
  public void age (int age);
  public void experience (int exp);
};

In the C++/Parser mapping I mentioned above this interface as well
as the "SAX routing code" are automatically generated from XML Schema.

The user can then implement this interface to receive the data:

public class EmployeeImpl implements Employee {

  public void name (String name)
  {
    // Handle name.
  }

  public void age (int age)
  {
    // Handle age.
  }

  public void experience (int exp)
  {
    // Handle experience.
  }
};


[1] http://www.codesynthesis.com/products/xsd/c++/parser/

Boris

-- 
Boris Kolpackov, Code Synthesis        http://codesynthesis.com/~boris/blog
Open-source XML data binding for C++   http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsd
XML data binding for embedded systems  http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsde
Command line interface to C++ compiler http://codesynthesis.com/projects/cli

---

From: Santhosh T [mailto:santhosh.tekuri@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 January 2010 09:48
To: Boris Kolpackov
Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: A new approach for SAX-Java Binding

Most of java-xml binding implementations provide two way support.
i.e, serializing domain object to xml
     deserializing xml to domain object.

But JLibs implementation is only one way. that is "deserializing xml to domain object".

the main advantages of JLibs implementation:

1. works with hand-coded domain objects
  
   most binding implementations mandate that domain objects has to be generated
   from schema or dtd. They don't work with hand-coded domain objects
  
2. domain objects are not tied to binding implementation

   domain objects dont need to extend/implement a particular class/interface from binding implementation.
   for example,
     XMLBeans mandates that all domain objects implement org.apache.xmlbeans.XmlObject
     Similarly EMF mandates that all domain objects implement EObject interface

3. domain objects are light-weight. i.e not poluted with binding implementation specific information
  
   for example: the domain objects created by XMLBeans or EMF carry lot of information which are specific
   to them. This will bloat up memory.
  
4. easier migration.
  
   let us say in version 2, you want to change the xml looks like, and still wants to provide backward
   compatibility to end-users.
  
   This is tedious task with other binding frameworks. With JLibs you can have different Binding implementations
   for a domain object and use appropriate one at runtime based on version of xml document.
  
5. clear separation of binding and domain object
6. in jlibs, it is like a callback methods. callback methods can define when it has
   to be called and what information from xml document you want. You have complete control how to consume that
   information into domain object (because you are implementing it in java code)
  
7. The runtime memory used by jlibs binding is minimal and no reflection api is used

JLibs binding implementation more of resembels apache-commons-digestor implementation but without reflection

- Santhosh

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Boris Kolpackov <boris@codesynthesis.com> wrote:

Hi Santhosh,

Santhosh T <santhosh.tekuri@gmail.com> writes:

> http://code.google.com/p/jlibs/wiki/SAX2JavaBinding
>
> this shows a new approach to define sax to java binding in very intutive
> manner.
>
> your comments are welcomed;

This idea might be new to Java, though something like this has been
available for C++ for several years now (see the C++/Parser[1]
mapping, for example).

I also think in your architecture you miss one of the main reasons
why people choose to use SAX over, say, DOM. Which is that they don't
want to (or cannot afford to) build an in-memory representation.
Instead, the XML data is processed as soon as it becomes available
in a pure event-driven or a partially in-memory / partially event-
driven mode.

In this light, a callback interface like this seems like a more
natural choice (using your Employee example):

public interface Employee {

 public void name (String name);
 public void age (int age);
 public void experience (int exp);
};

In the C++/Parser mapping I mentioned above this interface as well
as the "SAX routing code" are automatically generated from XML Schema.

The user can then implement this interface to receive the data:

public class EmployeeImpl implements Employee {

 public void name (String name)
 {
   // Handle name.
 }

 public void age (int age)
 {
   // Handle age.
 }

 public void experience (int exp)
 {
   // Handle experience.
 }
};


[1] http://www.codesynthesis.com/products/xsd/c++/parser/

Boris

--
Boris Kolpackov, Code Synthesis        http://codesynthesis.com/%7Eboris/blog%0AOpen-source XML data binding for C++   http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsd
XML data binding for embedded systems  http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsde
Command line interface to C++ compiler http://codesynthesis.com/projects/cli

> 
> This idea might be new to Java..

I can't see anything new about it. I can't see what it offers that all the
other Java-XML data binding frameworks don't.

> In this light, a callback interface like this seems like a 
> more natural choice (using your Employee example):
> 
> public interface Employee {
> 
>   public void name (String name);
>   public void age (int age);
>   public void experience (int exp);
> };
> 

and once you're there, it's a very small step to XSLT...

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

Hello,

Up to now, I defined key, unique and keyref constraints on a element
definition.  I now have to define other elements of the same type as
the existing element.

So I've created a complex type with the content of the existing
element.  I would like to associate the key and keyref constraints to
the type, because these constraints must always be obeyed, and so that
they can be shared beween all elements referencing this type.

Is there a way to do that ?

Thanks for your replies

Vincent De Groote

I have a schema proced.xsd that I redefine in this schema:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<xs:schema xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
xmlns:aGivenExtension="http://aGivenExtension"
targetNamespace="http://aGivenExtension"
elementFormDefault="qualified" attributeFormDefault="qualified">

	<xs:redefine schemaLocation="proced.xsd">
		<xs:complexType name="supportEquipDescrElemType">
			<xs:complexContent>
				<xs:extension base="supportEquipDescrElemType">
					<xs:sequence>
						<xs:element ref="aGivenExtension:supportEquipMaterialSetRef"/>
					</xs:sequence>
			
				</xs:extension>
			</xs:complexContent>
		</xs:complexType>
		
	</xs:redefine>	
	
	
	<xs:complexType name="materialSetRefType">
	<xs:sequence/>
		<xs:anyAttribute processContents="lax"/>
	</xs:complexType>
	
	<xs:element name="supportEquipMaterialSetRef"
type="aGivenExtension:materialSetRefType"/>
</xs:schema>

But I get this error in XmlSpy:
"Redefining type definition
'aGivenExtension:supportEquipDescrElemType' must be an extension or
restriction of itself."

which is unclear to me.

I want to redefine the "supportEquipDescrElemType" from proced.xsd.
proced.xsd has no namespace in it.

What is the correct process to extend it with some elements from the
"aGivenExtension:" namespace?

On 2010 Jan 21, at 07:01, Christopher R. Maden wrote:

> I have
> actually had people stop me on the street to accuse me of
> non-well-formedness

...presumably whilst you were wearing the T-shirt.  Or have manners _really_ gone downhill?

Norman


-- 
Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk

Pass parse.  You will need a newMedia consultant.  Spin is all important.
Have you published your Twitter follower numbers?  Very important to cred.
I think Digital Royalty works with sports figures mainly, but with just a
bit of time in the gym, she may take you as a client.

len


From: Norman Walsh [mailto:ndw@nwalsh.com] 

"Len Bullard" <cbullard@hiwaay.net> writes:

> Although the <geek> should be <geek /> unless there is a closing tag on
the
> back of the t-shirt.

Of course there's a </geek> on the back of the shirt!

All credit goes to Paxton for conceiving, shooting, and producing the
video. All I did was show up.

> You do know geekChic is dead, right? 

Then I won't admit that the t-shirt is actually mine.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | The universe that we observe has
http://nwalsh.com/            | precisely the properties we should
                              | expect if there is, at bottom, no
                              | design, no purpose, no evil and no
                              | good, nothing but pitiless
                              | indifference.--Richard Dawkins

Ok, I just don't want to think our newest attentivore is setting bad
examples.  :)

As a rock star, he certainly has a pre-nup to take care of upset special
others, but he should stay away from Vanity Fair.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher R. Maden [mailto:crism@maden.org] 
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:02 AM
To: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'
Subject: Re:  Norman Walsh, Rock Star

Len Bullard wrote:
> Although the <geek> should be <geek /> unless there is a closing tag on
the
> back of the t-shirt.

Of *course* there's a close tag on the back of the shirt, Len!  I have
actually had people stop me on the street to accuse me of
non-well-formedness, or to tell me that they had been planning to do so
before seeing the back.

ThinkGeek was selling these back in 2000-2001 or so, along with their
<body> T-shirts and <head> baseball caps.

I just wonder what Deb thinks of the groupie in the video. (-:

~crism
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of
 the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

_______________________________________________________________________

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"Len Bullard" <cbullard@hiwaay.net> writes:

> Although the <geek> should be <geek /> unless there is a closing tag on the
> back of the t-shirt.

Of course there's a </geek> on the back of the shirt!

All credit goes to Paxton for conceiving, shooting, and producing the
video. All I did was show up.

> You do know geekChic is dead, right? 

Then I won't admit that the t-shirt is actually mine.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | The universe that we observe has
http://nwalsh.com/            | precisely the properties we should
                              | expect if there is, at bottom, no
                              | design, no purpose, no evil and no
                              | good, nothing but pitiless
                              | indifference.--Richard Dawkins

PGP signature

Len Bullard wrote:
> Although the <geek> should be <geek /> unless there is a closing tag on the
> back of the t-shirt.

Of *course* there’s a close tag on the back of the shirt, Len!  I have
actually had people stop me on the street to accuse me of
non-well-formedness, or to tell me that they had been planning to do so
before seeing the back.

ThinkGeek was selling these back in 2000–2001 or so, along with their
<body> T-shirts and <head> baseball caps.

I just wonder what Deb thinks of the groupie in the video. (-:

~crism
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of
 the human mind to correlate all its contents.” — H.P. Lovecraft
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

Now THAT is funny.  I know a rock star!

Although the <geek> should be <geek /> unless there is a closing tag on the
back of the t-shirt.

You do know geekChic is dead, right? 

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@koberg.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:47 PM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org List
Subject:  Norman Walsh, Rock Star

http://greenllama.com/index.php?option=com_content&catid=7&id=12&lang=en&vie
w=article

http://greenllama.com/index.php?option=com_content&catid=7&id=12&lang=en&view=article

Roger--

A few points:

On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> Hi Folks,
> 
> Consider these two examples:
> 
> 1. When you drive, you pay for only gasoline and maintenance. You don't pay for the noise and pollutants that your car emits.  You also don't pay for the added congestion and delays that you impose on other drivers. 

You might have said you don't pay for the roads you drive on either, in the same sense that you pay for gasoline.  But of course you DO pay for the roads;  the government taxes you for them.  They also make you pay for the pollutants, in the form of requirements that car makers meet antipollution standards, which the makers add to the price tags.  Maybe they don't make you pay ENOUGH, but that's another debate.  You'd also pay yourself, in the form of increased damage to your lungs and ears, if, say, you were stuck in the Sumner Tunnel during rush hour.  

You pay for congestion and delays in the form of congestion and delays (you pay in a more obvious way if you're stuck in a taxi with the meter running).

> 
> 2. When society is educated, it costs less to produce signs, ballots, tax forms, and other information tools. Literacy enables a democracy to function effectively, and higher education may stimulate scientific discoveries that improve the welfare of society. When you acquire an education, however, you do not get a check in the amount of savings your education will create for society.

You don't get a bill either.  If you were to write a check to Adolf Hitler for the amount of savings his education created for society, what number would you fill in?

> 
> The first example shows costs that you incur but are borne by others not directly involved.
> 
> The second example shows benefits that you incur but are accrued by others not directly involved.

The problem with this is that all these "others not directly involved" are only "not directly involved" by drawing very artificial lines around certain activities, in order to consider them "market transactions".  It makes sense in some circumstances to draw these lines for purposes of analysis, but you have to be careful that you can realistically isolate things in this way.  It's like the difference between "closed" and "open" systems in thermodynamics.  

> 
> Externalities are the costs or benefits of a market activity borne or accrued by someone who is not a direct party to the market transaction.
> 
> What are the externalities of deploying a web service?
> 
> Here's one: Suppose you deploy a web site and it is massively successful - lots of people visit your web site. You assume the costs of hiring land, labor, and capitol. But you don't bear the costs associated with the increased congestion and delays you impose on other users of the Internet.
> 
> Increased congestion and delays are externalities of deploying a web service. What are the other externalities?
> 
> Who pays for the externalities? For instance, who pays for the additional routers and DNS servers?

Suppose the web site is instead a (physical) shopping center, and ask the same questions?  Who pays for the congestion?  Who pays for widening the highways to enable people to get to the shopping center.  If the congestion gets too bad, doesn't the shopping center "pay" in terms of lost business (lack of return on investment) by people who avoid going there?  The Web site is the same isn't it?

What about the benefits?  If there weren't any popular Web sites to be accessed, wouldn't the Web be less popular, and fewer people want to pay for internet access?  

--Frank


> 
> /Roger
> 
> 
> P.S. The two examples and the definition of "externalities" come from the book: "Economics" by Boyes and Melvin.

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======================================================================
Balisage: The Markup Conference 2010          mailto:info@balisage.net
August 3-6, 2010                               http://www.balisage.net
pre-conference symposium: August 2, 2010              Montreal, Canada
======================================================================

Hi Anthony,

Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) <abcoatesecure-xmldev@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> Also, the path-based approach ignores restructurings that don't impact 
> users, like renaming of Schema types or moving of definitions to a 
> different Schema file.

Renaming of types in XML Schema can affect users if the vocabulary
uses xsi:type-style polymorphism. In this case schema type names 
end up in XML documents.

Boris

-- 
Boris Kolpackov, Code Synthesis        http://codesynthesis.com/~boris/blog
Open-source XML data binding for C++   http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsd
XML data binding for embedded systems  http://codesynthesis.com/products/xsde
Command line interface to C++ compiler http://codesynthesis.com/projects/cli

>-----Original Message-----
>From: G. Ken Holman [mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com]
>Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 12:14 p.m.
>To: xml-dev List
>Subject: Re:  Re: XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating
>diff fingerprints for XML Schemas
>
>
>I'll be interested in looking at XML Zebra for a way of generating
>the XPath instances for UBL schemas, and then I can just use it for
>arbitrary schemas.
>
Thank you Ken, I'll be interested in your findings for arbitrary schemas.

I am hoping that our UBL-NDR-LIKE schemas will result in smaller fingerprint
files than UBL, because our document schemas are much more prescriptive in
structure.
(You may remember our concept of MXV's CAC-"Views", where for one logical
ABIE many ABIE-"Views" can exist with varying prescriptive nested BBIEs and
ASBIEs. Hence, the maximum number of possible and valid XPaths in an MXV
instance is generally smaller than in an UBL instance.) 

Cheers
Juerg

Indeed.  In those cases, XML Zebra puts the xsi:type name in the path that  
it constructs.  When I talked about the tool ignoring restructurings, I  
was talking in the general case (since most people don't use xsi:type, in  
my experience).  A related point worth noting is that the current  
pre-release 1.0-pre-1 doesn't yet support substitution groups; that is  
planned for the next pre-release.

Cheers, Tony.

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:29:09 -0000, Boris Kolpackov  
<boris@codesynthesis.com> wrote:

> Hi Anthony,
>
> Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) <abcoatesecure-xmldev@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Also, the path-based approach ignores restructurings that don't impact
>> users, like renaming of Schema types or moving of definitions to a
>> different Schema file.
>
> Renaming of types in XML Schema can affect users if the vocabulary
> uses xsi:type-style polymorphism. In this case schema type names
> end up in XML documents.
>
> Boris

-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

Thank you Tony for the clarifications.

I will touch base with Ken directly RE his solution.

Cheers
Juerg

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) [mailto:abcoatesecure-
>xmldev@yahoo.co.uk]
>Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:56 a.m.
>To: DMS Lists; xml-dev List
>Cc: G. Ken Holman
>Subject: Re:  Re: XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating
>diff fingerprints for XML Schemas
>
>Hi Juerg.  Comments below.
>
>On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:43:07 -0000, DMS Lists <lists@d-m-s.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony, What you propose (keeping instead of pruning) makes sense.
>>
>> I conclude the fingerprint file can be created for a single schema
>> version also, without the need for 'diffing' it against a newer minor
>> version?
>
>Exactly.  While I expect diffs to be the major use case, there are
>definitely use cases like yours which are things that can be done with a
>single fingerprint file.
>
>> As far as I remember, Ken Holman's stylesheets are for UBL purposes,
>> requiring all valid UBL XPaths which are included in Ken's solution.
>
>I believe Ken knows how to generate paths for arbitrary Schemas, but I
>guess he can answer that himself.
>
>> I however was thinking of a more generic solution suitable for non-UBL
>> contexts, like our approach at the New Zealand Ministry of Education,
>> where at present we don't have all valid XPaths for our custom,
>> UBL-NDR-LIKE schemas.
>
>Either way, you could certainly derive the stylesheets you want from the
>fingerprint XML file that XML Zebra produces.
>
>Cheers, Tony.
>--
>Anthony B. Coates
>Director and CTO
>Londata Ltd
>UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
>Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
>Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),
>UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
>http://www.londata.com/
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
>[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Hi Tony, What you propose (keeping instead of pruning) makes sense.

I conclude the fingerprint file can be created for a single schema version also, without the need for 'diffing' it against a newer minor  version?

As far as I remember, Ken Holman's stylesheets are for UBL purposes, requiring all valid UBL XPaths which are included in Ken's solution.

I however was thinking of a more generic solution suitable for non-UBL contexts, like our approach at the New Zealand Ministry of Education, where at present we don't have all valid XPaths for our custom, UBL-NDR-LIKE schemas.

Is my understanding correct?

Cheers
Juerg

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) [mailto:abcoatesecure-
>xmldev@yahoo.co.uk]
>Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:13 a.m.
>To: xml-dev List
>Subject:  Re: XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating diff
>fingerprints for XML Schemas
>
>Hi Juerg.  Yes, it should be possible to do that. What I would do is use
>the XML fingerprint file to create a stylesheet of which keeps content
>for
>that version of the Schemas, and discards any other content.  I think
>this
>is safer than trying just to prune off the new content.  It can also be
>used no matter how many new minor versions you have.
>
>At this point, I should mention that Ken Holman has already written code
>that generates this kind of stylesheet, by processing a set of XML
>Schemas, so you should probably talk to him, as what I have is half of
>the
>solution, while he has (I believe) a complete solution.
>
>Cheers, Tony.
>
>On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:47:05 -0000, DMS Lists <lists@d-m-s.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> Without trying out the tool, I can see potential for it.
>>
>> One particular scenario I am thinking of, but not certain whether it
>> could be covered, is this:
>>
>> Goal: Eliminate branches in an XML instance document which belong to a
>> newer MINOR version than currently installed on the messaging server.
>>
>> Example: The messaging server is on W3C schema A version 1.4, but
>> receives a message based on schema A version 1.5 and processing is to
>be
>> attempted.
>>
>> If XML Zebra can identify all 1.5 specific additions (which by NDR
>> definitions must be backward compatible with v1.4),
>> could XML Zebra output be used to generate a stylesheet specific for A
>> version 1.4 which would trim out all 1.5 branches from an 1.5 instance
>> document?
>>
>> Such a generator could basically run for any minor versioned schema,
>> generating a forward compatibility stylesheet for each minor schema
>> version.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Juerg
>>
>> -------------
>>
>> Juerg Tschumperlin
>> Data Management Solutions,
>> Wellington, New Zealand
>> www.d-m-s.co.nz
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) [mailto:abcoatesecure-
>>> xmldev@yahoo.co.uk]
>>> Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 5:17 a.m.
>>> To: xml-dev List
>>> Subject:  XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating diff
>>> fingerprints for XML Schemas
>>>
>>> I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the
>>> differences
>>> between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run
>with
>>> Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you
>>> create
>>> a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an
>>> extended
>>> syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions,
>you
>>> can
>>> see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools
>>> makes
>>> use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML
>Schemas.
>>>
>>> How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema
>>> files
>>> themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you
>>> not
>>> only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are
>>> directly
>>> or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
>>> ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of
>Schema
>>> types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put
>another
>>> way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas
>have
>>> changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
>>> file-change perspective.
>>>
>>> The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For
>>> more
>>> details, and to download it, see
>>>
>>> http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>>>
>>> There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague
>2010
>>> conference, 13-14 March.
>>>
>>> http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>>>
>>> Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>>>
>>> Cheers, Tony.
>
>--
>Anthony B. Coates
>Director and CTO
>Londata Ltd
>UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
>Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
>Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),
>UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
>http://www.londata.com/
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
>[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Hi Tony,

Without trying out the tool, I can see potential for it.

One particular scenario I am thinking of, but not certain whether it could be covered, is this:

Goal: Eliminate branches in an XML instance document which belong to a newer MINOR version than currently installed on the messaging server.

Example: The messaging server is on W3C schema A version 1.4, but receives a message based on schema A version 1.5 and processing is to be attempted.

If XML Zebra can identify all 1.5 specific additions (which by NDR definitions must be backward compatible with v1.4),
could XML Zebra output be used to generate a stylesheet specific for A version 1.4 which would trim out all 1.5 branches from an 1.5 instance document?

Such a generator could basically run for any minor versioned schema, generating a forward compatibility stylesheet for each minor schema version.

Cheers
Juerg

------------- 

Juerg Tschumperlin
 
Data Management Solutions,
Wellington, New Zealand
www.d-m-s.co.nz

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) [mailto:abcoatesecure-
>xmldev@yahoo.co.uk]
>Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 5:17 a.m.
>To: xml-dev List
>Subject:  XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating diff
>fingerprints for XML Schemas
>
>I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the
>differences
>between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
>Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you
>create
>a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an
>extended
>syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you
>can
>see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools
>makes
>use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.
>
>How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema
>files
>themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you
>not
>only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are
>directly
>or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
>ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
>types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
>way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
>changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
>file-change perspective.
>
>The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For
>more
>details, and to download it, see
>
>http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>
>There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
>conference, 13-14 March.
>
>http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>
>Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>
>Cheers, Tony.
>--
>Anthony B. Coates
>Director and CTO
>Londata Ltd
>abcoates@londata.com
>UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
>Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
>Skype: abcoates
>Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),
>UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
>http://www.londata.com/
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
>[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

Hi Juerg.  Comments below.

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:43:07 -0000, DMS Lists <lists@d-m-s.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Tony, What you propose (keeping instead of pruning) makes sense.
>
> I conclude the fingerprint file can be created for a single schema  
> version also, without the need for 'diffing' it against a newer minor   
> version?

Exactly.  While I expect diffs to be the major use case, there are  
definitely use cases like yours which are things that can be done with a  
single fingerprint file.

> As far as I remember, Ken Holman's stylesheets are for UBL purposes,  
> requiring all valid UBL XPaths which are included in Ken's solution.

I believe Ken knows how to generate paths for arbitrary Schemas, but I  
guess he can answer that himself.

> I however was thinking of a more generic solution suitable for non-UBL  
> contexts, like our approach at the New Zealand Ministry of Education,  
> where at present we don't have all valid XPaths for our custom,  
> UBL-NDR-LIKE schemas.

Either way, you could certainly derive the stylesheets you want from the  
fingerprint XML file that XML Zebra produces.

Cheers, Tony.
-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

What next?  Sorry, I haven't posted much documentation yet because that's  
what the XML Prague presentation is, and I don't want to post that until  
after the conference.

However, the "fingerprint" files are for detecting changes.  So, generate  
a fingerprint from some Schemas, make a change, and generate a new  
fingerprint.  Then diff the fingerprints and you will see how it pinpoints  
the changes.  In particular, change a type that is used in many places,  
and see how the fingerprint changes in all of the places that the type is  
used.

I've included a stylesheet and an XQuery for converting the XML  
fingerprint file into a text file of paths.  That can be easier to use if  
you have text diff tools available rather than XML diff tools.

The fingerprint files can get large, if you have a large set of Schemas,  
but that's just a reflection of the real complexity of the documents that  
the Schemas allow.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Tony.

PS thanks, I'll make a note on the site that you need Java 1.6.

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:16:31 -0000, Fraser Goffin <goffinf@googlemail.com>  
wrote:

> Interesting.
>
> Its perhaps worth pointing out that the Java version appears to
> require at least 1.6 (for XMLOutputFactory).
>
> I ran the example and it produced the paths.xml.
>
> Now what ??
>
> Fraser.
>
> 2010/1/17 Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) <abcoatesecure-xmldev@yahoo.co.uk>:
>> I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the  
>> differences
>> between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
>> Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you  
>> create
>> a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an  
>> extended
>> syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you  
>> can
>> see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools  
>> makes
>> use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.
>>
>> How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema  
>> files
>> themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you  
>> not
>> only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are  
>> directly
>> or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
>> ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
>> types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
>> way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
>> changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
>> file-change perspective.
>>
>> The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For  
>> more
>> details, and to download it, see
>>
>> http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>>
>> There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
>> conference, 13-14 March.
>>
>> http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>>
>> Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>>
>> Cheers, Tony.


-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

Hi Juerg.  Yes, it should be possible to do that. What I would do is use
the XML fingerprint file to create a stylesheet of which keeps content for
that version of the Schemas, and discards any other content.  I think this
is safer than trying just to prune off the new content.  It can also be
used no matter how many new minor versions you have.

At this point, I should mention that Ken Holman has already written code  
that generates this kind of stylesheet, by processing a set of XML  
Schemas, so you should probably talk to him, as what I have is half of the  
solution, while he has (I believe) a complete solution.

Cheers, Tony.

On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:47:05 -0000, DMS Lists <lists@d-m-s.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Without trying out the tool, I can see potential for it.
>
> One particular scenario I am thinking of, but not certain whether it  
> could be covered, is this:
>
> Goal: Eliminate branches in an XML instance document which belong to a  
> newer MINOR version than currently installed on the messaging server.
>
> Example: The messaging server is on W3C schema A version 1.4, but  
> receives a message based on schema A version 1.5 and processing is to be  
> attempted.
>
> If XML Zebra can identify all 1.5 specific additions (which by NDR  
> definitions must be backward compatible with v1.4),
> could XML Zebra output be used to generate a stylesheet specific for A  
> version 1.4 which would trim out all 1.5 branches from an 1.5 instance  
> document?
>
> Such a generator could basically run for any minor versioned schema,  
> generating a forward compatibility stylesheet for each minor schema  
> version.
>
> Cheers
> Juerg
>
> -------------
>
> Juerg Tschumperlin
> Data Management Solutions,
> Wellington, New Zealand
> www.d-m-s.co.nz
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) [mailto:abcoatesecure-
>> xmldev@yahoo.co.uk]
>> Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 5:17 a.m.
>> To: xml-dev List
>> Subject:  XML Zebra, a path-based tool for generating diff
>> fingerprints for XML Schemas
>>
>> I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the
>> differences
>> between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
>> Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you
>> create
>> a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an
>> extended
>> syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you
>> can
>> see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools
>> makes
>> use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.
>>
>> How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema
>> files
>> themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you
>> not
>> only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are
>> directly
>> or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
>> ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
>> types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
>> way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
>> changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
>> file-change perspective.
>>
>> The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For
>> more
>> details, and to download it, see
>>
>> http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>>
>> There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
>> conference, 13-14 March.
>>
>> http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>>
>> Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>>
>> Cheers, Tony.

-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

At 2010-01-17 20:19 +0000, Anthony B. Coates \(XML-Dev\) wrote:
>The fingerprint files can get large, if you have a large set of Schemas,
>but that's just a reflection of the real complexity of the documents that
>the Schemas allow.

Indeed.  For the UBL 2.0 Order there are 880,000 possible elements 
and attributes without duplicating any XPath address from the 
document node to the reported item.

Accordingly, I wrote stylesheets to create XPath files from arbitrary 
instances:

   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/resources/ubl/#xpathins

... as the XPath reports useful for writing stylesheet and citing 
content are more manageable when limited to only an instance.  But 
they are also more fragile compared to, say, the UBL schemas which 
have not changed in over three years.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . Ken

--
UBL and Code List training:      Copenhagen, Denmark 2010-02-08/10
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training after http://XMLPrague.cz 2010-03-15/19
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training:   San Carlos, California 2010-04-26/30
Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video
Video lesson:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18
Video overview:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18
G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal

Interesting.

Its perhaps worth pointing out that the Java version appears to
require at least 1.6 (for XMLOutputFactory).

I ran the example and it produced the paths.xml.

Now what ??

Fraser.

2010/1/17 Anthony B. Coates (XML-Dev) <abcoatesecure-xmldev@yahoo.co.uk>:
> I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the differences
> between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
> Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you create
> a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an extended
> syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you can
> see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools makes
> use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.
>
> How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema files
> themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you not
> only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are directly
> or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
> ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
> types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
> way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
> changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
> file-change perspective.
>
> The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For more
> details, and to download it, see
>
> http://www.xmlzebra.com/
>
> There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
> conference, 13-14 March.
>
> http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html
>
> Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,
>
> Cheers, Tony.
> --
> Anthony B. Coates
> Director and CTO
> Londata Ltd
> abcoates@londata.com
> UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
> Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
> Skype: abcoates
> Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),
> UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
> http://www.londata.com/
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>

Forgive me for coming late to the party.

At 2010-01-17 20:56 +0000, Anthony B. Coates \(XML-Dev\) wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:43:07 -0000, DMS Lists <lists@d-m-s.co.nz> wrote:
>>As far as I remember, Ken Holman's stylesheets are for UBL purposes,
>>requiring all valid UBL XPaths which are included in Ken's solution.
>
>I believe Ken knows how to generate paths for arbitrary Schemas, but I
>guess he can answer that himself.

The "XPath files" stylesheets for schemas assume the UBL NDR (only 
global declarations and references, no anonymous types).  The code 
does not work for arbitrary schemas.  The stylesheets create an XML 
instance describing all of the possible XPath addresses to elements 
and attributes possible when using a schema.  Recursive references 
are noted but not traversed.

I'll be interested in looking at XML Zebra for a way of generating 
the XPath instances for UBL schemas, and then I can just use it for 
arbitrary schemas.

The stylesheets for producing the XPath reports from an XPath 
instance are here:

   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/resources/ubl/#xpathrep

Acknowledging the size of the UBL schemas, a more manageable (but 
more fragile) set of XPaths can be created from an instance.  The 
stylesheets for creating XPath files for arbitrary instances are here:

   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/resources/ubl/#xpathins

. . . . . . . . . Ken


--
UBL and Code List training:      Copenhagen, Denmark 2010-02-08/10
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training after http://XMLPrague.cz 2010-03-15/19
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training:   San Carlos, California 2010-04-26/30
Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video
Video lesson:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18
Video overview:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18
G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal

I have written a tool (in Scala) that can be used to check the differences
between versions of a set of W3C XML Schemas.  The tool can be run with
Scala, Java, or Apache Ant.  The idea is that for each version, you create
a fingerprint file that contains paths (like XPaths, but with an extended
syntax).  By comparing the two fingerprint files for two versions, you can
see what has changed between the versions of the Schemas.  The tools makes
use of the XMLBeans API for examining the structure of W3C XML Schemas.

How does this differ from just doing diffs of the individual Schema files
themselves?  The difference is that the path-based approach shows you not
only what has changed, but also shows all of the places that are directly
or indirectly impacted by the change.  Also, the path-based approach
ignores restructurings that don't impact users, like renaming of Schema
types or moving of definitions to a different Schema file.  Put another
way, the path-based approach allows you to evaluate how the Schemas have
changed from a user-impact perspective, rather than from a simple
file-change perspective.

The software is open source, released under the Apache licence.  For more
details, and to download it, see

http://www.xmlzebra.com/

There will be a presentation about this software at the XML Prague 2010
conference, 13-14 March.

http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html

Feedback would be very welcome.  Thanks,

Cheers, Tony.
-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
abcoates@londata.com
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Skype: abcoates
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

Of course. My mistake when clicking the Reply button.

Just to reiterate, of course many organisations and private
individuals provide services on the public Internet and in that case
your points about dealing with unexpected demand are perfectly valid
and can be a blessing or a curse depending on the side-effects of that
demand (more orders vs. less order+more costs because of an
unintentioned DoS).

For internal services and/or those made available as part of specific
trading partner relationships, there tends to be a greater level of
goverance to provide some assurance around service level expectations,
which in some cases may include incentives and penalities.

Hope this adds to the debate

Fraser.

2010/1/16 Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org>:
> Hi Fraser,
>
>    Excellent!
>
>    How about sharing this with the rest of the xml-dev community?
>
> /Roger
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Fraser Goffin [goffinf@googlemail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:42 AM
> To: Costello, Roger L.
> Subject: Re:  What are the "externalities" of deploying a web  service?
>
> For corporate web services (internal or external facing) this would
> really be part of the run-time governance model. That is, there isn't
> carte-blanche access to services, there is controlled access which has
> associated SLA's. The run-time governamce is there to ensure both that
> SLA thresholds are not exceeded (and to proactively report when they
> are approached) and to ensure that 'rogue' access to services is
> either prevented or gives rise to alerts. Clearly in many business
> contexts, performance, avialabilaity, resilience, scalability (n fact
> all of the non functionals) can't be left to the vagueries service
> popularity.
>
> Fraser.
>
> 2010/1/16 Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org>:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Consider these two examples:
>>
>> 1. When you drive, you pay for only gasoline and maintenance. You don't pay for the noise and pollutants that your car emits.  You also don't pay for the added congestion and delays that you impose on other drivers.
>>
>> 2. When society is educated, it costs less to produce signs, ballots, tax forms, and other information tools. Literacy enables a democracy to function effectively, and higher education may stimulate scientific discoveries that improve the welfare of society. When you acquire an education, however, you do not get a check in the amount of savings your education will create for society.
>>
>> The first example shows costs that you incur but are borne by others not directly involved.
>>
>> The second example shows benefits that you incur but are accrued by others not directly involved.
>>
>> Externalities are the costs or benefits of a market activity borne or accrued by someone who is not a direct party to the market transaction.
>>
>> What are the externalities of deploying a web service?
>>
>> Here's one: Suppose you deploy a web site and it is massively successful - lots of people visit your web site. You assume the costs of hiring land, labor, and capitol. But you don't bear the costs associated with the increased congestion and delays you impose on other users of the Internet.
>>
>> Increased congestion and delays are externalities of deploying a web service. What are the other externalities?
>>
>> Who pays for the externalities? For instance, who pays for the additional routers and DNS servers?
>>
>> /Roger
>>
>>
>> P.S. The two examples and the definition of "externalities" come from the book: "Economics" by Boyes and Melvin.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>
>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>
>>

> But you don't bear the costs associated with the increased congestion 
and delays you
> impose on other users of the Internet. ... Increased congestion and 
delays are externalities
> of deploying a web service. What are the other externalities? Who pays 
for the externalities?
> For instance, who pays for the additional routers and DNS servers?

I think your model of the network is too simplistic.

If A hosts a very popular service and B uses it and C's "quality of 
service" goes down, you are assuming that A is responsible and is somehow 
getting a free ride by others paying for externalities. But why isn't B 
responsible, since it is using the service?  And if B and C have the same 
provider, then perhaps the provider, D, needs to increase capacity or 
lower B's usage through technology (CDN's) or economics (bandwidth caps) 
or other means.

        /r$

--
STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/

The users of the internet pay by paying their local IP for internet services 
(who then pay for upband services),
or by paying in taxes if its a government funded internet. Or both.
The Web services also pay *their* internet provider and/or taxes.

Your examples from the book seem incomplete.   Atleast in a capitalistic 
based society:
The car owners pay taxes (gas taxes, road, sales/VAT and general taxes) 
which contribute to the externalities.
The educated person gets a check *later* when they actually show benefit for 
society by getting a job and expending their stored value (education).  Or 
they can choose not to use it, and have absorbed societies 'donation' 
because often education costs more then individuals pay (subsidized by 
government aka taxes) in which case they have taken but not given.


The web site owner may or may not get paid for providing 'value' to society 
depending on their business model.
Although often any income is derived by providing things the end-customer 
doesn't really want
but rather by something someone else wants you to have and is willing to pay 
for it  (advertising),

Of course the internet is not unique.   You could build a public library or 
hospital if you wanted, which provided value to society, and depending on 
your business model you may or may not get any income from this.

Somehow it all works out in the end or we'd end up with massive inflation.
But the details are not always considered 'fair' by every individual  for so 
many reasons beyond the scope of this email.




----------------------------------------------------
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:40 AM
To: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
Subject:  What are the "externalities" of deploying a web service?

> Hi Folks,
>
> Consider these two examples:
>
> 1. When you drive, you pay for only gasoline and maintenance. You don't 
> pay for the noise and pollutants that your car emits.  You also don't pay 
> for the added congestion and delays that you impose on other drivers.
>
> 2. When society is educated, it costs less to produce signs, ballots, tax 
> forms, and other information tools. Literacy enables a democracy to 
> function effectively, and higher education may stimulate scientific 
> discoveries that improve the welfare of society. When you acquire an 
> education, however, you do not get a check in the amount of savings your 
> education will create for society.
>
> The first example shows costs that you incur but are borne by others not 
> directly involved.
>
> The second example shows benefits that you incur but are accrued by others 
> not directly involved.
>
> Externalities are the costs or benefits of a market activity borne or 
> accrued by someone who is not a direct party to the market transaction.
>
> What are the externalities of deploying a web service?
>
> Here's one: Suppose you deploy a web site and it is massively successful - 
> lots of people visit your web site. You assume the costs of hiring land, 
> labor, and capitol. But you don't bear the costs associated with the 
> increased congestion and delays you impose on other users of the Internet.
>
> Increased congestion and delays are externalities of deploying a web 
> service. What are the other externalities?
>
> Who pays for the externalities? For instance, who pays for the additional 
> routers and DNS servers?
>
> /Roger
>
>
> P.S. The two examples and the definition of "externalities" come from the 
> book: "Economics" by Boyes and Melvin.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
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> 

Hi Folks,
 
Consider these two examples:
 
1. When you drive, you pay for only gasoline and maintenance. You don't pay for the noise and pollutants that your car emits.  You also don't pay for the added congestion and delays that you impose on other drivers. 
 
2. When society is educated, it costs less to produce signs, ballots, tax forms, and other information tools. Literacy enables a democracy to function effectively, and higher education may stimulate scientific discoveries that improve the welfare of society. When you acquire an education, however, you do not get a check in the amount of savings your education will create for society.
 
The first example shows costs that you incur but are borne by others not directly involved.
 
The second example shows benefits that you incur but are accrued by others not directly involved.
 
Externalities are the costs or benefits of a market activity borne or accrued by someone who is not a direct party to the market transaction.
 
What are the externalities of deploying a web service?
 
Here's one: Suppose you deploy a web site and it is massively successful - lots of people visit your web site. You assume the costs of hiring land, labor, and capitol. But you don't bear the costs associated with the increased congestion and delays you impose on other users of the Internet.
 
Increased congestion and delays are externalities of deploying a web service. What are the other externalities?
 
Who pays for the externalities? For instance, who pays for the additional routers and DNS servers?
 
/Roger


P.S. The two examples and the definition of "externalities" come from the book: "Economics" by Boyes and Melvin.

 
 

If you are going to be at the XML Prague conference on 13/14 March

http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/index.html

and are interested in XML processing with Scala (or just interested to
hear about it), a few of us are planning to have an informal meetup during
the conference.  If you are interested to join in, please let me know.

Thanks, Cheers, Tony.
-- 
Anthony B. Coates
Director and CTO
Londata Ltd
UK: +44 (20) 8816 7700, US: +1 (239) 344 7700
Mobile/Cell: +44 (79) 0543 9026
Data standards participant: genericode, ISO 20022 (ISO 15022 XML),  
UN/CEFACT, MDDL, FpML, UBL.
http://www.londata.com/

Hello,

I have a xml file, simplified like this:

<a-file>

<x>
  <a id='a1'/>
  <a id='a2'/>
  <bb>
    <xx>
       <a id='55'/>
       <a id='66'/>
    </xx>
    <a id='a3'/>
    <a id='a4'/>
    <cc>
       <a-ref id-ref='a2'/>
       <a-ref id-ref='a4'/>
    </cc>
  </bb>
  <a id='a7'/>
  <a id='a8'/>
</x>

<x>
  ...
</x>

</a-file>

In this xml file, "a-ref/@id-ref" shoud reference a "a/@id" under its
"x" ascendant.

I wrote the xml schema grammar: the "a/@id" attributes are checked to
be unique within an "x" element, and the "a-ref/@id-ref" attributes
are checked to reference an existing "a/@id" attribute.

I have another constraint:  an "a-ref/@id-ref" may only reference a
"a/@id" node which appears before him, within its "x" ascendant.
The referenced "a" node should exist in its preceding-siblings, the
preceding-siblings of its parent, ... up to the "x" ascendant:

In other words, in the example, the first "a-ref" element should only
reference one of the following ids: a1, a2, a3, a4, but not 55 or 66,
a7 or a8.

In xslt-2, i can write a function which checks this rule, but i cannot
find a way to write it in a grammar.
I will need to use embedded shematron rules for other checks, but i
cannot find an xpath to check this rule.

I'm working with saxon9-ee edition.

Any idea on how to do that ?

Thanks for your replies
Vincent De Groote

>The referenced "a" node should exist in its preceding-siblings, the
preceding-siblings of its parent, ... up to the "x" ascendant: 

Apart from stopping at the x element, that constraint can be written

@id-ref = ancestor-or-self::*/preceding-sibling::*/@id

Stopping at the x element can be done as

@id-ref = (ancestor-or-self::* except
ancestor::x/ancestor-or-self::*)/preceding-sibling::*/@id


Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vincent De Groote [mailto:list.encelade@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 12 January 2010 17:09
> To: xml-dev
> Subject:  xpath problem
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have a xml file, simplified like this:
> 
> <a-file>
> 
> <x>
>   <a id='a1'/>
>   <a id='a2'/>
>   <bb>
>     <xx>
>        <a id='55'/>
>        <a id='66'/>
>     </xx>
>     <a id='a3'/>
>     <a id='a4'/>
>     <cc>
>        <a-ref id-ref='a2'/>
>        <a-ref id-ref='a4'/>
>     </cc>
>   </bb>
>   <a id='a7'/>
>   <a id='a8'/>
> </x>
> 
> <x>
>   ...
> </x>
> 
> </a-file>
> 
> In this xml file, "a-ref/@id-ref" shoud reference a "a/@id" 
> under its "x" ascendant.
> 
> I wrote the xml schema grammar: the "a/@id" attributes are 
> checked to be unique within an "x" element, and the 
> "a-ref/@id-ref" attributes are checked to reference an 
> existing "a/@id" attribute.
> 
> I have another constraint:  an "a-ref/@id-ref" may only 
> reference a "a/@id" node which appears before him, within its 
> "x" ascendant.
> The referenced "a" node should exist in its 
> preceding-siblings, the preceding-siblings of its parent, ... 
> up to the "x" ascendant:
> 
> In other words, in the example, the first "a-ref" element 
> should only reference one of the following ids: a1, a2, a3, 
> a4, but not 55 or 66,
> a7 or a8.
> 
> In xslt-2, i can write a function which checks this rule, but 
> i cannot find a way to write it in a grammar.
> I will need to use embedded shematron rules for other checks, 
> but i cannot find an xpath to check this rule.
> 
> I'm working with saxon9-ee edition.
> 
> Any idea on how to do that ?
> 
> Thanks for your replies
> Vincent De Groote
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by 
> OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To 
> minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
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> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: 
> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 

well, i must admit i am puzzled.
as far as i was understanding, a substitutionGroup was supposed to
create a OR between an existing ***group*** definition, and a new
***group*** definition.
(like the |= operator in RelaxNG).

but it seems that substitutionGroup only applies on an ***element***,
so its definition mimicks the definition of another element.

my conclusion at the moment is: substitutionGroup has nothing to do
with altering a definition in a newer iteration of a schema.

did i miss something?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Olivier Rossel
<olivier.rossel@gmail.com> wrote:
> thank you so much, michael !
>
> does my idea of massive usage of substitutionGroup sound like a good
> idea, to modularize and ease the patching of my schemas in the future?
> (given the fact that i am stuck in a XSD 1.0 environment).
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this schema is invalid : It is illegal to
>>> create an empty "optionalAttribute_elements" group.
>>> What is the correct way to define a group that contains
>>> nothing? or just text?
>>>
>>
>> <xs:group name="optionalAttribute_elements">
>>  <xs:sequence/>
>> </xs:group>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michael Kay
>> http://www.saxonica.com/
>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>>
>>
>

thank you so much, michael !

does my idea of massive usage of substitutionGroup sound like a good
idea, to modularize and ease the patching of my schemas in the future?
(given the fact that i am stuck in a XSD 1.0 environment).

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, this schema is invalid : It is illegal to
>> create an empty "optionalAttribute_elements" group.
>> What is the correct way to define a group that contains
>> nothing? or just text?
>>
>
> <xs:group name="optionalAttribute_elements">
>  <xs:sequence/>
> </xs:group>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>
>

I wish I could create a modular schema, where I can override some
definitions in future versions
of the schema.
At the moment, I plan to use substitutionGroup, but I am still unsure
of the original schema
to define.

Here is for example the schema for a <optionalAttribute> element:

   <xs:element name="optionalAttribute" type="optionalAttribute_type">
   </xs:element>

  <xs:complexType name="optionalAttribute_type" mixed="true">
     <xs:group ref="optionalAttribute_elements"/>
     <xs:attributeGroup ref="optionalAttribute_attributes"/>
   </xs:complexType>

   <xs:attributeGroup name="optionalAttribute_attributes">
   </xs:attributeGroup>

   <xs:group name="optionalAttribute_elements">
   </xs:group>

This schema is pretty much hollow. No specified attribute, no specified inner
content (except textual content, via the mixed="true")

I hope such a schema to validate this XML with no problem:

<optionalAttribute
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="Issue1.xsd" >
text
</optionalAttribute>


Unfortunately, this schema is invalid : It is illegal to create an
empty "optionalAttribute_elements" group.
What is the correct way to define a group that contains nothing? or just text?

Note: Please keep in mind that this schema is engineered that way so
future versions of the schema can heavily refactor the groups, via
xsd:substitutionGroup).

 
> does my idea of massive usage of substitutionGroup sound like 
> a good idea, to modularize and ease the patching of my 
> schemas in the future?

I couldn't really work out in detail what you were planning to do. I'm
afraid that creating schemas capable of being customized is always hard
work.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

> 
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Michael Kay 
> <mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, this schema is invalid : It is illegal to create an 
> >> empty "optionalAttribute_elements" group.
> >> What is the correct way to define a group that contains 
> nothing? or 
> >> just text?
> >>
> >
> > <xs:group name="optionalAttribute_elements">
> >  <xs:sequence/>
> > </xs:group>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael Kay
> > http://www.saxonica.com/
> > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
> >
> >

> 
> Unfortunately, this schema is invalid : It is illegal to 
> create an empty "optionalAttribute_elements" group.
> What is the correct way to define a group that contains 
> nothing? or just text?
> 

<xs:group name="optionalAttribute_elements">
  <xs:sequence/>
</xs:group>

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

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On Tue, 2010-01-05 at 09:38 +0000, Michael Kay wrote:
> > 
> > I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML 
> > document, but rather that external knowledge is applied to 
> > infer meaning.
> 
> I agree.
> > 
> > This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are 
> > used, 
> 
> I disagree. The URI http://www.ibm.com/plans-for-new-supercomputer.xml
> has no more intrinsic meaning than the tag <i>.

We have to be careful not to get too mired down with semiotics...what
do we mean by meaning... for sure there's a sense in which no string
has any "intrinsic" meaning, it's just a sequence of characters...

The URI is an unambiguous identifier, and I'm not really sure I'd want
to try to go too much further... I don't share the idea for example that
anyone can assign an authoritative URI to represent a person, a dog, a
snowflake, or any other real-life object.

I think you're right that a URI doesn't have any more meaning than any
other string, a priori, but we can look at it and, knowing it to be a
URI, get an unambiguous name.

Of course, there are lots of other ways of getting unambiguous names,
I'm not trying to promote one, but was actually trying (badly) to say
that I think the ambiguity that XML names afford is not a bad thing.


Liam


-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org

> If not, what sort 
> of construct do you think does have intrinsic meaning? 

I'm no linguistics philosopher, but I find it hard to imagine any sequence
of symbols can convey information to someone who has no prior knowledge that
enables them to attach meaning to the symbols, unless perhaps the symbols
are visual representations of objects that both the sender and receiver are
familiar with.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

Michael Kay wrote
>>  I find it hard to imagine any sequence of symbols can convey 
information to someone
>> who has no prior knowledge that enables them to attach meaning to 
the symbols
>> unless perhaps the symbols are visual representations of objects 
that both
>> the sender and receiver are familiar with.

Pioneer 10 and 11 plaques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque

If / when one of those plaques are found in the future, it will be 
quite interesting if the finder
is familiar with the symbols.

On 01/05/2010 11:04 AM, Michael Kay wrote:
>> If not, what sort
>> of construct do you think does have intrinsic meaning?
>>      
> I'm no linguistics philosopher, but I find it hard to imagine any sequence
> of symbols can convey information to someone who has no prior knowledge that
> enables them to attach meaning to the symbols, unless perhaps the symbols
> are visual representations of objects that both the sender and receiver are
> familiar with.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>    
Yes, I'm not either (I only impersonate one on this mailing list), and I 
agree that symbols need to refer to an external source to gain meaning.

I think maybe the point Jim was making was that URIs, by virtue of 
referring to something external, attach meaning, wheras element names do 
not, in themselves, do that.  Of course URIs might not resolve to 
anything (meaningful), and element names could refer to an external 
schema which might provide meaning, too, so that does tend to erase the 
distinction he was making, but there is at least the implicit notion of 
a URI as being resolvable, which isn't built in to an element name.

-Mike

Mike (Sokolov):
[cc's pruned to just the list, not individuals]

At 9:23 PM -0500 1/4/10, Liam R E Quin wrote:
>>>  I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML
>>>  document, but rather that external knowledge is applied to
>>>  infer meaning....

At 10:00 AM -0500 1/5/10, Mike Sokolov wrote:
>... eventually this line of argument will lead to the erosion of all
>meaning, or at least all "intrinsic" meaning.  Is that your point?
>If not, what sort of construct do you think does have intrinsic
>meaning? ...

Here's a paper that argues that any kind of information (in this 
context, any XML document or any specification for an XML-based 
language) has no intrinsic meaning. It says, "Information, it turns 
out, is simply the vehicle by which we attempt to provoke - or evoke 
- a human response.... Meaning is a mental thing and is only ever 
tacit, that is to say, 'in us'."

"I = 0 (Information has no intrinsic meaning)"
F.J. Miller, Principal Consultant, Fernstar. Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.
Information Research, Vol. 8 No. 1, October 2002
<http://informationr.net/ir/8-1/paper140.html>

That said, in my crude journeyman work with XML-based languages I 
would say that describing a relationship between XML language 
statements and something in the real world (or at least the world 
outside the XML-based language) is what assigns meaning. A document 
written in the XML-based language doesn't have intrinsic meaning.

e.g.
<ISBN>0-12345689-0</ISBN>  -- no intrinsic meaning
"this language includes an <ISBN> entity" -- no intrinsic meaning
"the ISBN entity marks a string which shall be interpreted as an 
International Standard Book Number as defined by ISO 2108. -- assigns 
meaning

But I'm no language philosopher either. Or even a skilled XML developer.
-- 
     --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com     http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/)
       multilingual websites consultant

       157-2906 West Broadway, Vancouver BC V6K 2G8, Canada
          Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953

On 01/05/2010 04:38 AM, Michael Kay wrote:
>> I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML
>> document, but rather that external knowledge is applied to
>> infer meaning.
>>      
> I agree.
>    
>> This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are
>> used,
>>      
> I disagree. The URI http://www.ibm.com/plans-for-new-supercomputer.xml has
> no more intrinsic meaning than the tag<i>.
>
>    
I tend to want to agree, but eventually this line of argument will lead 
to the erosion of all meaning, or at least all "intrinsic" meaning.  Is 
that your point?  If not, what sort of construct do you think does have 
intrinsic meaning?  Would we include the XML Schema 1.1 specification?  
(How about XML Schema 1.0 :) ?

-Mike

> 
> I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML 
> document, but rather that external knowledge is applied to 
> infer meaning.

I agree.
> 
> This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are 
> used, 

I disagree. The URI http://www.ibm.com/plans-for-new-supercomputer.xml has
no more intrinsic meaning than the tag <i>.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

Michael Kay wrote:
>> This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are 
>> used, 
> 
> I disagree. The URI http://www.ibm.com/plans-for-new-supercomputer.xml has
> no more intrinsic meaning than the tag <i>.

Thank you for saying that.  This point needs to be made regularly.

Strings of text, whatever form they take, have the meanings we give 
them.  We can certainly build systems around our expectations of those 
meanings, and hope we share those meanings, but let's always be cautious 
about just how tightly we can pin down any meaning.

-- 
Simon St.Laurent
http://simonstl.com/

Hi Liam

Comments below:

-----Original Message-----
From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM
To: Jim Tivy
Cc: 'Costello, Roger L.'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE:  Marketplace XML Vocabularies

On Sun, 2010-01-03 at 11:29 -0800, Jim Tivy wrote:

> "meaning in XML documents is "extrinsic".  Perhaps it would be safer
> to say that meaning is extrinsic to eXtensible Markup Language - although
> some may argue that even XML constrains expression.

Constrains expression, yes, but that's not the same thing.

> I do not believe, however, that meaning is extrinsic to instances of
> XML that conform to XML vocabularies (XML documents)

I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML document, but
rather that external knowledge is applied to infer meaning.

To see this, consider any piece of XML out of context:

<i>
  <e>Fiona MacCarthy</e>
  <w>Eric Gill</w>
  <t>506</t>
  <g>b80e87135095c396d5e6adb067a553e1</g>
</i>
[<JT>] 
Many XML documents have meaningful tags or/and a DTD or schema.

As well, my point was based on XSLT as an example:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<!-- This file is part of the DITA Open Toolkit project hosted on 
  Sourceforge.net. See the accompanying license.txt file for 
  applicable licenses.-->
<!-- (c) Copyright IBM Corp. 2004, 2005 All Rights Reserved. -->
<xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
version="1.0">
  <xsl:import href="../common/output-message.xsl"/>
  <!-- Define the error message prefix identifier -->
  <xsl:variable name="msgprefix">DOTX</xsl:variable>
  <!--xsl:param name="WORKDIR" select="'./'"/-->
  <xsl:param name="PROJDIR" select="&apos;.&apos;"/>
  <xsl:param name="DBG" select="no"/>
  <!-- Bluestream  7-June-2007
<xsl:param name='FILEREF'>file://</xsl:param> -->
  <xsl:param name="FILEREF"/>
  <xsl:variable name="ORIGINAL-DOMAINS"
select="/*/@domains|/dita/*[@domains][1]/@domains"/>
  <xsl:template match="/">
    <xsl:apply-templates>
      <xsl:with-param name="conref-ids" select="&apos; &apos;"/>
    </xsl:apply-templates>
  </xsl:template>
  <!-- If the target element does not exist, this template will be called to
issue an error -->
  <xsl:template name="missing-target-error">
    <xsl:call-template name="output-message">
      <xsl:with-param name="msgnum">010</xsl:with-param>
      <xsl:with-param name="msgsev">E</xsl:with-param>
      <xsl:with-param name="msgparams">%1=
        <xsl:value-of select="@conref"/>
      </xsl:with-param>
    </xsl:call-template>
  </xsl:template>
  

Now, tell me what those XML elements describe...

Hmm, well, its not possible in general.  We can make a guess and say
that i is for inventory, e is for editor, w is who a biography is
about, t is the thickness of the book in pages, and g could be an
encoded graphic but actually is the guarantee that the record is correct
(it's an md5 hash).

But none of these things are intrinsic to the markup.

This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are used, rather
than ungrounded element names. We have ambiguity, which adds richness
to our lives, multiplicity without (I hope) duplicity.

> I would argue that the use and meaning of XSLT Xml is intrinsic to the
> XSLT XML itself.  This is not to say I could not use XQuery on some XSLT
> documents to count how many time the <xsl:if> tag was used.
I think you contradict yourself there.  Or that we are somewhat at
cross-purposes.  The whole point is that the XQuery expression you use
doesn't need to know anything at all about the meaning, behavioural or
otherwise, of the XSLT markup.
[<JT>] Not a contradiction - this is not a mutually exclusive matter where
either you are right or I am right, rather I think we both are, but my
argument is I am more right :) - if you'll excuse the humour...

> This discussion also touches on controversies such as should there be
> an XML representation for languages like XQuery or Java...
There already is for XQuery at least, W3C XQueryX.
[<JT>] Yes, I am aware of XQueryX.  My question is this:
Does the same XQuery expression in XQueryX have less intrinsic meaning than
XQuery compact non Xml Syntax.  Does XQuery compact have no intrinsic
meaning?

Best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org

On Sun, 2010-01-03 at 11:29 -0800, Jim Tivy wrote:

> "meaning in XML documents is "extrinsic".  Perhaps it would be safer
> to say that meaning is extrinsic to eXtensible Markup Language - although
> some may argue that even XML constrains expression.

Constrains expression, yes, but that's not the same thing.

> I do not believe, however, that meaning is extrinsic to instances of
> XML that conform to XML vocabularies (XML documents)

I claim that there is no intrinsic meaning in an XML document, but
rather that external knowledge is applied to infer meaning.

To see this, consider any piece of XML out of context:

<i>
  <e>Fiona MacCarthy</e>
  <w>Eric Gill</w>
  <t>506</t>
  <g>b80e87135095c396d5e6adb067a553e1</g>
</i>

Now, tell me what those XML elements describe...

Hmm, well, its not possible in general.  We can make a guess and say
that i is for inventory, e is for editor, w is who a biography is
about, t is the thickness of the book in pages, and g could be an
encoded graphic but actually is the guarantee that the record is correct
(it's an md5 hash).

But none of these things are intrinsic to the markup.

This is very different from RDF, where explicit URIs are used, rather
than ungrounded element names. We have ambiguity, which adds richness
to our lives, multiplicity without (I hope) duplicity.

> I would argue that the use and meaning of XSLT Xml is intrinsic to the
> XSLT XML itself.  This is not to say I could not use XQuery on some XSLT
> documents to count how many time the <xsl:if> tag was used.
I think you contradict yourself there.  Or that we are somewhat at
cross-purposes.  The whole point is that the XQuery expression you use
doesn't need to know anything at all about the meaning, behavioural or
otherwise, of the XSLT markup.

> This discussion also touches on controversies such as should there be
> an XML representation for languages like XQuery or Java...
There already is for XQuery at least, W3C XQueryX.

Best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org

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                         Half-time member of W3C Team
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
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" The distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic is useful"

How?  For what?  The answer usually is "good layering" of the processors.
XML goes as far as to describe the cases for as errors a bad parse produces
and stops there.

1. Should international standards (bring your own authority) relying on XML
vocabularies by common practice if not requirement contain a semantic
description of some form that is not simply commented natural language?

2.  The question isn't should XML have such descriptions beyond what is
there in XML now, is it?

I'd say yes to one and no to two.  One, because you need better
interoperability at scales where now the scales are not simply distributions
but cohesion across versions of different system components from different
vendors.  Reliability inter-framework, so to speak.   

XML enables you to keep a distance.   You need something to fill the gaps.
Work on a better way to use the XML vocabularies more reliably is really an
issue of picking the ones you intend to share at the greatest distribution
and strengthening their coupling at the semantic layers while keeping the
vocabulary front and center for the content makers.

IMHO, this sounds like the work going on in HTML5.   Perhaps it is a
question of a better browser but it seems that being browser-bound means
being very restrictive in the markup applied or very liberal in the markup
and very restrictive in the object-specification.   The object spec approach
works pretty well.  Johannes Behr and Crew were able to get X3D to run well
because the behaviors of the language being DOM integrated was already
cohesive in it's own behaviors so a DOM interface worked as expected. SVG
showed the way.

I've not seen much discussion of the topic here where once it would have
been debated like it was a world treaty.  What do you think about HTML5?

len

Liam

"meaning in XML documents is "extrinsic".  Perhaps it would be safer to say
that meaning is extrinsic to eXtensible Markup Language - although some may
argue that even XML constrains expression.
I do not believe, however, that meaning is extrinsic to instances of XML
that conform to XML vocabularies (XML documents)

The distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic is useful, however it is
important to emphasis that different vocabularies of XML (and their
documents) contain meaning intrinsically more or less (not zero meaning) The
meaning these vocabularies carry may more or less cannote or denote usage,
or, in the case of a programming language like XSLT codified in XML, the XML
is most often passed through an XSLT processor that renders an outcome
defined by the formal semantics specification of that vocabulary.

Each XML vocabulary is different and XSLT carries more intrinsic meaning
whereas XHTML carries less.  In vocabularies like XHTML alot of the meaning
is contained in the text() nodes and is given meaning by the language
contained theirin.

I would argue that the use and meaning of XSLT Xml is intrinsic to the XSLT
XML itself.  This is not to say I could not use XQuery on some XSLT
documents to count how many time the <xsl:if> tag was used.

This discussion also touches on controversies such as should there be an XML
representation for languages like XQuery or Java...

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Liam Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:36 PM
To: Costello, Roger L.
Cc: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'
Subject: Re:  Marketplace XML Vocabularies

On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 08:25:51AM -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
[...]

> 1. What are the requirements for an XML vocabulary to find presence in the
> marketplace? Must the XML vocabulary have both standardized meaning and
> behavior? 


"Meaning" is a difficult word, but the important thing to remember is
that meaning in XML documents is "extrinsic" -- it's imposed on the
XML documents by applications.  This is different from (say) RDF,
where the meaning is "intrinsic" and is considered to be hard-wired
into the document.  (There's a bit of a conflict when you consider
that the only standard way to interchange RDF uses XML, but I digress).

XML documents do not, strictly speaking, have "behaviour". Again,
behaviour is imposed on the documents by appliations - e.g. I've
seen different programs do totally different things with the
same SVG document, such as producing a list of colours used, or
extracting the text and replacing it with a translated version,
even though the SVG spec says a circle is a circle...  The
document doesn't move, or behave, the application does.

Framk Romano once said (at a multimedia conference),
    "The printed word isn't dead.
     It just looks that way because it doesn't move."

AN XML vocabulary is the same in terms of marketplace as any other
technology -
(1) enabling - you can do something you couldn't do before
(2) improving - you can make something better than before
(3) facilitating - it makes a process easier or faster or cheaper

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/

_______________________________________________________________________

XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
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> I am 95% certain that the 
> pain caused by allowing prefix declarations only on the root 
> element would be far less than the pain caused by allowing 
> redeclarations of prefixes.

That would mean an XSLT processor would have to build the result tree in
memory rather than serializing it on the fly. The cost of that for people
transforming large documents is quite significant.

(But the question is academic. If we were changing this rule, we would want
to change lots of other rules at the same time.)

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

I deal with many document types that have an envelope within which is both
addressing information (and perhaps other things such as a digital
signature) and a single payload element containing data. In other words, the
payload data would be a well-formed XML document on its own with its own
root element, but this is embedded in something else. In this case, it is
common to declare a default namespace in the embedded element that is
different from the namespace(s) of the envelope. SOAP-based web services
also come to mind.

Paul



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov [mailto:sokolov@ifactory.com]
> Sent: 02 January 2010 5:32 PM
> To: 'Dave Pawson'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE:  Lesson Learned: Use namespaces for both markup
anddata
> 
> I wonder if anyone has any insight into how often the "embeddability" of
> namespaces gets used.  In other words, if it weren't possible to include
> namespace declarations on any element (but only, say on the root element,
or
> via some other document-scoped mechanism), would that be a major pain?  In
> my experience, documents are not usually being produced by pasting text,
but
> by an xml-aware processor that is capable of managing declarations at the
> document level.
> 
> -Mike
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dave Pawson [mailto:davep@dpawson.co.uk]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:07 AM
> > To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: Re:  Lesson Learned: Use namespaces for
> > both markup anddata
> >
> > James Clark on namespaces.
> > http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> > --
> > Dave Pawson
> > XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
> > http://www.dpawson.co.uk
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > _________
> >
> > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by
> > OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To
> > minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> >
> > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive:
> > http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
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> I am 95% certain that the pain caused by allowing
> prefix declarations only on the root element would be far less than
> the pain caused by allowing redeclarations of prefixes.

If there weren't already a huge installed base, perhaps. But it would 
certainly put pretty tight restrictions on "streaming" where something 
like XSLT doesn't buffer the whole result tree in memory first.

        /r$

--
STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Paul Spencer
<xml-dev-list@boynings.co.uk> wrote:
> I deal with many document types that have an envelope within which is both
> addressing information (and perhaps other things such as a digital
> signature) and a single payload element containing data. In other words, the
> payload data would be a well-formed XML document on its own with its own
> root element, but this is embedded in something else. In this case, it is
> common to declare a default namespace in the embedded element that is
> different from the namespace(s) of the envelope. SOAP-based web services
> also come to mind.

A default namespace that changes is not nearly as big a problem as a
prefix that changes. I am 95% certain that the pain caused by allowing
prefix declarations only on the root element would be far less than
the pain caused by allowing redeclarations of prefixes.

-- 
Elliotte Rusty Harold
elharo@ibiblio.org

I wonder if anyone has any insight into how often the "embeddability" of
namespaces gets used.  In other words, if it weren't possible to include
namespace declarations on any element (but only, say on the root element, or
via some other document-scoped mechanism), would that be a major pain?  In
my experience, documents are not usually being produced by pasting text, but
by an xml-aware processor that is capable of managing declarations at the
document level.

-Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Pawson [mailto:davep@dpawson.co.uk] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 4:07 AM
> To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re:  Lesson Learned: Use namespaces for 
> both markup anddata
> 
> James Clark on namespaces.
> http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regards
> 
> --
> Dave Pawson
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
> http://www.dpawson.co.uk
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by 
> OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To 
> minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: 
> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 
> 

James Clark on namespaces.
http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html




regards

-- 
Dave Pawson
XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
http://www.dpawson.co.uk

> A specification could provide just the meaning of the <Author> element, perhaps something like this:
> 
>     Author: a person who writes a novel, poem, essay, etc.
> 
> The meaning is nice, but what effect should result from an application
> processing the <Author> element? That, it seems to me, is vitally
> important for a specification to provide. Do you agree? 

No, disagree completely. Much of the value of declarative markup is that
processing is _not_ specified. A document means what it means and lasts
for ever. The processing model used by today's generation of
applications is just a temporary artifact of the technology and
interfaces being used to present the document. It needs to be specified
somewhere but it is separate from the specifcation of the markup. (Which
is one reason why many people are concened about the style of definition
of html5 which places DOM interaction as a primary part of the language
definition.)

David

On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 08:25:51AM -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
[...]

> 1. What are the requirements for an XML vocabulary to find presence in the
> marketplace? Must the XML vocabulary have both standardized meaning and
> behavior? 


"Meaning" is a difficult word, but the important thing to remember is
that meaning in XML documents is "extrinsic" -- it's imposed on the
XML documents by applications.  This is different from (say) RDF,
where the meaning is "intrinsic" and is considered to be hard-wired
into the document.  (There's a bit of a conflict when you consider
that the only standard way to interchange RDF uses XML, but I digress).

XML documents do not, strictly speaking, have "behaviour". Again,
behaviour is imposed on the documents by appliations - e.g. I've
seen different programs do totally different things with the
same SVG document, such as producing a list of colours used, or
extracting the text and replacing it with a translated version,
even though the SVG spec says a circle is a circle...  The
document doesn't move, or behave, the application does.

Framk Romano once said (at a multimedia conference),
    "The printed word isn't dead.
     It just looks that way because it doesn't move."

AN XML vocabulary is the same in terms of marketplace as any other
technology -
(1) enabling - you can do something you couldn't do before
(2) improving - you can make something better than before
(3) facilitating - it makes a process easier or faster or cheaper

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/

At 2009-12-31 14:42 -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>Awesome message Ken. Thanks!
>
> > Actually, a processor is required to produce the end result *as if*
> > it had implemented the described behavior.  It is not required to
> > behave as described in the specification.  It is a subtle but
> > important distinction
>
>I like it! A specification describes the end results of processing 
>elements, i.e., it's an effects-based description.
>
> > So, I would say that XML vocabularies only describe meaning and not
> > behavior.
>
>Shouldn't a specification of an XML vocabulary provide both meaning 
>and effect?

Not necessarily.  Only if there is an effect to be had by using the 
specification, which is not always the case.

>For example, consider this element:
>
>    <Author>...</Author>
>
>A specification could provide just the meaning of the <Author> 
>element, perhaps something like this:
>
>     Author: a person who writes a novel, poem, essay, etc.
>
>The meaning is nice, but what effect should result from an 
>application processing the <Author> element? That, it seems to me, 
>is vitally important for a specification to provide. Do you agree?

Not at all.  If I create an XML vocabulary for capturing ISBN 
information of books published by a publishing company, it will have 
an Author element as part of the vocabulary description, but it won't 
have a specification for what to do with that Author element.

Some companies may wish to use the Author element to create web pages 
summarizing all books by a given author for reference purposes.

Some companies may wish to load up their inventory and ordering 
systems with information about books and include the book author in 
that information to help their users choose which books to stock and buy.

The publisher may want to use the Author element to determine where 
the quarterly payment royalties go for books sold.

That the information describes a property is sufficiently useful to 
make standardizing the label for that information so that all users 
use and expect the same label for what they need.

Making the effort to standardize an XML vocabulary for capturing ISBN 
information will enable many processes to do what they want with the 
information.  If two trading partners want to effect the same process 
on that information, they may wish to create a standardized process 
to do so, but they didn't have to for the author information itself 
to be standardized.

>Assertion: an XML vocabulary that has aspirations of ending up in 
>the marketplace must be described by a specification that provides 
>both meaning and effect. Do you agree?

No.

UBL describes *no* process whatsoever.  I don't know a lot about 
XBRL, but from what I do know I think XBRL doesn't either.  Both are 
quite successful in the "marketplace" because different vendors are 
embracing it *for different purposes*.  Both are standardized XML 
vocabularies that describe information and nothing else ... no 
processes, just structure and content ... processes are up to the 
users to determine.  The US Securities and Exchange Commission has an 
internal process of its own that acts on the standardized labels of 
information found in an XBRL instance.  The Government of Denmark has 
an internal process of its own that acts on the standardized labels 
of information found in a UBL instance.  The people creating XBRL and 
UBL instances don't have to know anything about any processes.  Their 
only obligation is to express the information they have using the 
standardized labels in the XML vocabularies.

Really, XML only ever describes information.  And for some XML 
vocabularies, their purpose is fulfilled by only describing 
information in a standardized set of labels.

Yes, the XSLT XML vocabulary describes information capturing the 
expected results of a standardized process, thus an XSLT instance 
describes the inputs to a documented standardized process expected to 
be implemented by an XSLT processor.  So, an XSLT processor acts on 
the XSLT instance and produces the result of a transformation.  I 
gave the example earlier of an XSLStyle stylesheet acting on an XSLT 
instance to create XHTML documentation for that stylesheet.  That is 
a different process acting on the XSLT instance assuming the same 
semantics of the XSLT specification (to know what to document how), 
yet totally ignoring the XSLT process because it isn't important to 
presenting the documentation of the stylesheet.

I think you an only assert that an XML vocabulary that has 
aspirations of ending up in the marketplace must be described by a 
specification that unambiguously and clearly documents the meaning of 
all element and attribute labels and the relationships of labeled 
information found in the instance.  A specification may also include 
unambiguous and clearly documented results of a set of processes one 
may choose to apply to an instance of the XML vocabulary.  Other 
(standardized or non-standardized) specifications may describe 
alternative processes on that same XML vocabulary.

A user community who wishes to adopt the standardized process will be 
well-served by also adopting the standardized vocabulary used that 
feeds that process.  Vendors wanting to serve that user community 
will be successful if their software implements the standardized 
processes users wish to engage with the vocabulary.

So I really cannot agree with you that *both* are required for an XML 
vocabulary to be successful.  Yes for an XML vocabulary that 
describes information used in a particular process, but not for *all* 
XML vocabularies as a general statement.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . . . . . Ken

--
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G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal

It's simple enough: anyone writing an XML vocabulary that doesn't write a
processor (say object model?) specification dealt a dodo even where the
coupling at the exchange is weak.  The stronger the coupling, the stronger
the data typing and method definitions where coupling strength is some
measure of intensionality (expectation of behaviors or correct methods
across the interface).

Not a big mystery.  More of a business rule issue of product over
marketplace or feature sets.  Contract behaviors for processors can be
declared by parties at any exchange.  It's an issue as complexity is added
by different *types* of business partners.  The more complex the partnership
networks, social or business, the harder it is to keep consistent rules.
The basic challenge is merging type systems that have some low frequency but
real-time evolutionary rate of change.

XML is there when that all goes to dung, partners go solo and you, the XML
owner want to retrieve value from the investment in those data sets.

A marketplace is not abstract.

len


From: Costello, Roger L. [mailto:costello@mitre.org] 

Assertion: an XML vocabulary that has aspirations of ending up in the
marketplace must be described by a specification that provides both meaning
and effect. Do you agree?

/Roger

At 02:42 PM 12/31/2009, you wrote:
>The meaning is nice, but what effect should result from an 
>application processing the <Author> element? That, it seems to me, 
>is vitally important for a specification to provide. Do you agree?

Original design of SGML on which XML was designed was to separate 
this formatting from the content. The formatting in many cases is 
case dependant. In some applications you might not need to display 
the author information or you want to use it in multiple ways.


>Assertion: an XML vocabulary that has aspirations of ending up in 
>the marketplace must be described by a specification that provides 
>both meaning and effect. Do you agree?

Some default information about presentation might be nice but it 
shouldn't required.

Note I come from the publications side of the world.

..dan


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Vint

Panoramic Photography
http://www.dvint.com

voice: 502-749-6179
     

 
Awesome message Ken. Thanks!

> Actually, a processor is required to produce the end result *as if* 
> it had implemented the described behavior.  It is not required to 
> behave as described in the specification.  It is a subtle but 
> important distinction

I like it! A specification describes the end results of processing elements, i.e., it's an effects-based description.

> So, I would say that XML vocabularies only describe meaning and not 
> behavior. 

Shouldn't a specification of an XML vocabulary provide both meaning and effect?

For example, consider this element:

   <Author>...</Author>

A specification could provide just the meaning of the <Author> element, perhaps something like this:

    Author: a person who writes a novel, poem, essay, etc.

The meaning is nice, but what effect should result from an application processing the <Author> element? That, it seems to me, is vitally important for a specification to provide. Do you agree?

Assertion: an XML vocabulary that has aspirations of ending up in the marketplace must be described by a specification that provides both meaning and effect. Do you agree?

/Roger

At 2009-12-31 08:25 -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>Consider this: XML elements can be assigned standardized meaning and 
>standardized behavior. For example, XSLT is an XML vocabulary with 
>standardized meaning and behavior. An XSLT processor is an 
>application that behaves in accordance with the behavior described 
>by the XSLT specification.

Actually, a processor is required to produce the end result *as if* 
it had implemented the described behaviour.  It is not required to 
behave as described in the specification.  It is a subtle but 
important distinction:  the information marked up in XML as an XSLT 
stylesheet is declarative (even though template rules once selected 
are processed imperatively).  A stylesheet writer chooses to use the 
XSLT vocabulary to declare what is to be done for the 
transformation.  *How* a processor accomplishes that which the user 
wants is not specified.  If that processor doesn't produce what the 
user is expecting, then it probably won't be able to compete with a 
processor that does produce what the user is expecting.

So, I would say that XML vocabularies only describe meaning and not 
behaviour. The user of the XML vocabulary is declaring the conditions 
of what they want when their instance is processed by a processor 
implementing their expectations.  How that processor behaves is 
irrelevant if they get the end result they need.

There is a good quote from the XSL-FO specification that revealed 
this to me way back when it first was released:

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xsl-20011015/xslspec.html#section-N639-Processing-a-Stylesheet
   The XSL processing model is intended to be conceptual only. An
   implementation is not mandated to provide these as separate
   processes. Furthermore, implementations are free to process the
   source document in any way that produces the same result as if
   it were processed using the conceptual XSL processing model. A
   diagram depicting the detailed conceptual model is shown below.

... and that quote has held me in good stead when thinking about all 
XML vocabularies that represent what people want to see as the end 
result of described processes.  Accordingly, specifications I've 
worked on have kept this in mind that what the XML represents is the 
end result, not the process itself.  Competition can then be based on 
how the end results are created, perhaps using innovative 
implementations unrelated to described processes but somehow 
producing the end result of the described processes.

>Since the publication of the XSLT specification, numerous XSLT 
>processors have entered the marketplace, with names such as SAXON, 
>XALAN, and Sabletron. Market forces drove some XSLT processors to 
>rise to the top, while others dropped out of popularity.
>
>Ditto for XML Schema.

Various reasons:  conformance, performance, product differentiations 
outside of the specification (e.g. available extensions, API's, etc.).

If a processor processes a user's instance and doesn't produce their 
expected result, the user will likely not use that processor.

>I call XSLT and XML Schema "marketplace XML vocabularies."
>
>Now consider (X)HTML. As far as I know, the (X)HTML specification 
>does not specify the behavior of each element. For example, it does 
>not specify how an application (e.g., browser) should behave upon 
>encountering, say, a <ul> element.

Oh?  How are the following two different?

   http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/lists.html#h-10.2
   Ordered and unordered lists are rendered in an identical manner except
   that visual user agents number ordered list items. User agents may....

and:

   http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-xslt20-20070123/#applying-templates
   The xsl:apply-templates instruction takes as input a sequence of nodes
   (typically nodes in a source tree), and produces as output....)

In both cases the reader of the specification is directed as to which 
XML markup to use to effect an end result of, respectively, user 
agent presentation and user agent transformation.  The XHTML 
specification doesn't say *how* the rendering is effected, only what 
it is to look like.  The XSLT specification doesn't say *how* the 
output is produced, only what output is to be produced.

>Yet, the (X)HTML vocabulary has a clear presence in the marketplace, 
>in the form of browsers such as Firefox, IE, and Opera.

Various reasons:  conformance, performance, product differentiations 
outside of the specification (e.g. user interface, API's, etc.).

But note that user agent presentation is but one use of 
XHTML.  Ostensibly, people are using XHTML to relate information to 
other information, declaring those relationships through hierarchy 
and hyperlinking.  Rendering those relationships is one use of 
XHTML.  Others might have other processes acting on those relationships.

>(X)HTML is a marketplace XML vocabulary.
>
>
>QUESTIONS
>
>1. What are the requirements for an XML vocabulary to find presence 
>in the marketplace?

Meeting a need that the market has that isn't currently being 
met.  Many XML vocabularies have been created but relatively few are 
in active use.  Some are pet projects that people throw out there for 
interest.  Others might be vendor attempts at addressing a need with 
their own colloquial vocabulary, which either gets ignored or perhaps 
gets adopted and built upon to create a standard vocabulary.

I look to my experience in OASIS specifications.  Consider the 
Universal Business Language (UBL) XML vocabulary:

   http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/os-UBL-2.0/UBL-2.0.html

The elements in the vocabulary don't describe behaviour but merely 
label the information found in, say, a purchase order or an invoice, 
so that different processors acting on that information behave as 
users expect the processors to behave.  XML is only being used to 
describe the information to act on, it doesn't restrict how that 
information is acted on.  Different processes will act on different 
business documents for different reasons.

Different vendors of electronic commerce software have tried to 
create their proprietary answer to business document XML vocabularies 
so that they could sell their software.  I would think that users of 
business document XML vocabularies would not want their information 
tied to a single vendor.  The xCBL creators donated their XML 
vocabulary to OASIS at the inception of UBL (it happens that since 
then the original structure of xCBL was maintained while the 
particular XML elements were not kept and have been replaced).

So standardization is important to users of XML vocabularies who 
don't want to be tied to any one vendor with a colloquial vocabulary.

But, there is even competition in standardization, that hopefully 
leads to cooperation and harmonization.  For example, in parallel to 
the development of OASIS UBL, the UN/CEFACT organization is 
developing its own XML vocabularies for electronic commerce.  In 2006 
both organizations agreed to harmonize their work, and it was agreed 
that OASIS would only maintain dot releases of UBL 2 in order to meet 
user requirements of UBL 2 users.  It was agreed there wouldn't be 
any kind of "UBL 3" because it is expected that UN/CEFACT will 
eventually produce an XML vocabulary that meets the needs of both 
UN/CEFACT users and OASIS UBL users.  Until that happens, user 
communities can adopt OASIS UBL knowing that UN/CEFACT are working 
towards meeting and exceeding those requirements in the future.

Note that the PEPPOL project is looking at deploying XML 
specifications for business documents across Europe and, accordingly, 
is creating implementations supporting those OASIS documents 
available to meet user requirements as well as those UN/CEFACT 
documents available to meet user requirements, and users can choose 
whichever one satisfies their needs:

   http://www.peppol.eu/

In the OASIS Code List Representation Technical Committee:

   http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/codelist/

... the independent work of Tony Coates was brought in to the 
committee and standardized as Genericode 1.0.  Again, an existing 
colloquial vocabulary was developed into a standardized vocabulary 
and with standardization users get the reassurances of no vendor 
lock-in.  Other standardized vocabularies are being developed within 
in the committee, such as context/value association 
(CVA).  Interestingly, the committee voted on removing any kind of 
process description or standardization out of early drafts of the CVA 
specification, reducing it solely to a declarative specification of 
relationships.  Thus, implementation of any process for CVA is up to 
users to agree on with vendors in order to meet user needs.

>Must the XML vocabulary have both standardized meaning and behavior?

I would say "definitely" for meaning and "not at all" for behaviour, 
provided that the end result of however the processor behaves 
produces the end result represented by the meaning *expected* by the user.

Back in the SGML days there were some permathreads that boiled down 
to "a marked-up instance represents anything the recipient wants it 
to represent".  If what the recipient thinks happens to match what 
the sender thinks, then the sender has achieved their objective of 
relating the information as they thought.  But a recipient of an XML 
instance is free to make entirely unexpected interpretations of the 
information and that isn't wrong.  It might be unexpected by the 
sender, but who is to say that what the recipient is doing with it is 
wrong?  If they want to do anything at all with that information, 
that doesn't make it wrong.

Consider my XSLStyle stylesheet for documenting an XSLT stylesheet:

   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/resources/#xslstyle

... a developer's XSLT stylesheet is being processed by the XSLStyle 
stylesheet to produce XHTML documentation, it isn't being processed 
to effect a transformation.  Writing an XSLT stylesheet produces two 
results based on the process acting on the instance:  an XSLT 
processor acting on the instance effects a transformation of some 
kind,  a stylesheet acting on the instance creates a file of XHTML 
documentation.  The instance doesn't change, yet two very different 
processes effect two very different results on the same 
instance.  The XSLT vocabulary has standardized meaning, but two 
entirely different processes are acting on an XSLT instance.

>2. What are the characteristics of an XML vocabulary that incite 
>vendors to create conforming applications and compete in the marketplace?

I would think the main characteristic is that the vendor's users find 
the vocabulary useful enough to want to work with it, and the 
vendor's software powerful enough or conformant enough that the user 
is willing to pay the vendor for that software.  Wouldn't most 
business decisions work that way?

I think early users of XML were complacent and would live with 
whatever the vendor gave them, but these days XML users are more in 
the driver's seat by having expectations of what they want from the 
tools they use and are willing to pay for.

One last comment:  standardization does not necessary guarantee 
success.  There is still an obligation of standards committees to 
meet real needs.  Tim McGrath on the UBL committee often brings up 
the important point that "traction trumps sanction".  An XML 
vocabulary that promotes adoption and gets traction from users will 
win out over an XML vocabulary that doesn't meet users' needs but is 
dictated from on high with formal sanction.

I hope this is considered helpful.

. . . . . . . . . . . . Ken


--
UBL and Code List training:      Copenhagen, Denmark 2010-02-08/10
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training after http://XMLPrague.cz 2010-03-15/19
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training:   San Carlos, California 2010-04-26/30
Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video
Video lesson:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18
Video overview:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18
G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal

Hi Folks,

Consider this: XML elements can be assigned standardized meaning and standardized behavior. For example, XSLT is an XML vocabulary with standardized meaning and behavior. An XSLT processor is an application that behaves in accordance with the behavior described by the XSLT specification. Since the publication of the XSLT specification, numerous XSLT processors have entered the marketplace, with names such as SAXON, XALAN, and Sabletron. Market forces drove some XSLT processors to rise to the top, while others dropped out of popularity.

Ditto for XML Schema.

I call XSLT and XML Schema "marketplace XML vocabularies."


Now consider (X)HTML. As far as I know, the (X)HTML specification does not specify the behavior of each element. For example, it does not specify how an application (e.g., browser) should behave upon encountering, say, a <ul> element. Yet, the (X)HTML vocabulary has a clear presence in the marketplace, in the form of browsers such as Firefox, IE, and Opera.

(X)HTML is a marketplace XML vocabulary.


QUESTIONS

1. What are the requirements for an XML vocabulary to find presence in the marketplace? Must the XML vocabulary have both standardized meaning and behavior? 

2. What are the characteristics of an XML vocabulary that incite vendors to create conforming applications and compete in the marketplace?

/Roger

> I welcome your comments.

as others have said, there is no reason to single out out namespace
prefixes. Information can be encoded in the use of white space, or the
choice of " or ' around attribute values for example. Also the posted
code has a real chance of breaking the docuement as it doesn't consider
qnames in content. If for example you applied that to a xslt stylesheet
to normalise the prefixes used, then all xpaths within the stylesheet
would break unless you changed them to match which isn't really possible
without access to an xpath parser at run time.

David

Any protocol that has any redundancy in it has the capability to carry
steganographic information. Using namespace prefixes for this is pretty
naive: if you want to evade detection, why not encode the secret information
into the whitespace between attributes?

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Costello, Roger L. [mailto:costello@mitre.org] 
> Sent: 28 December 2009 16:15
> To: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'
> Subject:  Namespace prefixes are a security risk
> 
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> INTRODUCTION
> 
> The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are 
> trying to prevent the release of unauthorized information at 
> an enclave boundary. Namespace prefixes provide a ready 
> channel for transmitting information out of the protected 
> enclave.  That channel is overlooked by most XML 
> applications, expect for an application that is specifically 
> looking for that information.
> 
> 
> THE PROBLEM
> 
> Consider this XML document containing data about a book:
> 
>     <book xmlns="http://www.book.org">
>         <title>The Origin of Wealth</title>
>         <author>Eric D. Beinhocker</author>
>         <date>2006</date>
>         <ISBN>1-57851-777-X</ISBN>
>         <publisher>Harvard Business School Press</publisher>
>         <cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>     </book>
> 
> Seems pretty innocuous, right?
> 
> It uses a default namespace declaration. Alternatively 
> (equivalently) each element can be qualified. And the prefix 
> can be anything, e.g.,
> 
>     <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
>         <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
>         <attackNOW:author>Eric D. Beinhocker</attackNOW:author>
>         <attackNOW:date>2006</attackNOW:date>
>         <attackNOW:ISBN>1-57851-777-X</attackNOW:ISBN>
>         <attackNOW:publisher>Harvard Business School 
> Press</attackNOW:publisher>
>         <attackNOW:cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>     </attackNOW:book>
> 
> Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?
> 
> But the problem isn't in how it "looks." The problem is that, 
> as far as XML tools are concerned, the two forms are exactly 
> equivalent:
> 
> - If the first form is schema-valid,
>   then the second form is schema-valid. 
> 
> - If the first form can be parsed by an
>   XML parser, then the second form can
>   be parsed by an XML parser.
>  
> - If the first form can be processed by
>   an XSLT transform, then the second form
>   can be processed by an XML transform.
> 
> So, a guard, processing XML documents, using XML tools, may 
> be completely oblivious to the covert information being 
> passed via the namespace prefix. You may even say that the 
> prefix is "invisible" to the guard.
> 
> 
> REPLACE NAMESPACE PREFIXES
> 
> The good news is that, whatever prefixes the XML document 
> contains, they can be replaced with controlled prefixes. Here 
> is an XSLT transform that replaces the namespace prefix with 
> N103: (Thanks to Ken Holman for this XSLT)
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="US-ASCII"?> <xsl:stylesheet 
> xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
>                 version="1.0">
> 
>     <xsl:param name="use-this-prefix"/>
> 
>     <xsl:template match="*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>         <xsl:element name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                      namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>             <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>        </xsl:element>
>     </xsl:template>
> 
>     <xsl:template match="@*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>        <xsl:attribute name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                       namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>            <xsl:value-of select="."/>
>        </xsl:attribute>
>     </xsl:template>
> 
>     <xsl:template match="@*|node()"><!--identity for all 
> other nodes-->
>        <xsl:copy>
>            <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>        </xsl:copy>
>     </xsl:template>
> 
> </xsl:stylesheet>
> 
> 
> COMMENTS
> 
> I welcome your comments.
> 
> /Roger
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by 
> OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To 
> minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
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> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
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> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 

Maybe I'm missing something ...

> And the prefix can be anything, e.g.,
> 
>     <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">

But this just seems to be a badly chosen prefix.

> Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?

It looks a bit silly, just like the following in C or Java:

  int attackNOW = 0;

-- 
Michael Ludwig

You don't even need namespaces for this 'hidden message'.
Just put the original order  in a file   
    attacknow.xml

or host it at
    http://www.attacknow.com/

Or send it in an email with a subject like "Attach Now".
in fact you dont need the XML at all for any of this.  An empty or 
non-existant file will do.





David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



G. Ken Holman wrote:
> At 2009-12-28 11:14 -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>> The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are trying 
>> to prevent the release of unauthorized information at an enclave 
>> boundary.
>
> Surely, Roger, you've been dipping into the New Year's grog a bit 
> early here, haven't you?
>
>> Namespace prefixes provide a ready channel for transmitting 
>> information out of the protected enclave.  That channel is overlooked 
>> by most XML applications, expect for an application that is 
>> specifically looking for that information.
>> ...
>>     <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
>>         <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
>> ...
>> Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?
>
> No, it looks ludicrous!
>
> I'm guessing you are pulling our collective legs here for some holiday 
> fun.  This is reminiscent of worries of rock music carrying hidden 
> transmissions programming the teenagers to rebel against their parents.
>
> Have a happy new year!
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . Ken
>
>
> -- 
> UBL and Code List training:      Copenhagen, Denmark 2010-02-08/10
> XSLT/XQuery/XPath training after http://XMLPrague.cz 2010-03-15/19
> XSLT/XQuery/XPath training:   San Carlos, California 2010-04-26/30
> Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
> Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
> Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video
> Video lesson:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18
> Video overview:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18
> G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
> Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
> Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php

At 2009-12-28 11:14 -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are trying 
>to prevent the release of unauthorized information at an enclave boundary.

Surely, Roger, you've been dipping into the New Year's grog a bit 
early here, haven't you?

>Namespace prefixes provide a ready channel for transmitting 
>information out of the protected enclave.  That channel is 
>overlooked by most XML applications, expect for an application that 
>is specifically looking for that information.
>...
>     <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
>         <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
>...
>Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?

No, it looks ludicrous!

I'm guessing you are pulling our collective legs here for some 
holiday fun.  This is reminiscent of worries of rock music carrying 
hidden transmissions programming the teenagers to rebel against their parents.

Have a happy new year!

. . . . . . . . . . . Ken


--
UBL and Code List training:      Copenhagen, Denmark 2010-02-08/10
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training after http://XMLPrague.cz 2010-03-15/19
XSLT/XQuery/XPath training:   San Carlos, California 2010-04-26/30
Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/i/
Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video
Video lesson:    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18
Video overview:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18
G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc
Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal

Hi Folks,


INTRODUCTION

The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are trying to prevent the release of unauthorized information at an enclave boundary. Namespace prefixes provide a ready channel for transmitting information out of the protected enclave.  That channel is overlooked by most XML applications, expect for an application that is specifically looking for that information.


THE PROBLEM

Consider this XML document containing data about a book:

    <book xmlns="http://www.book.org">
        <title>The Origin of Wealth</title>
        <author>Eric D. Beinhocker</author>
        <date>2006</date>
        <ISBN>1-57851-777-X</ISBN>
        <publisher>Harvard Business School Press</publisher>
        <cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
    </book>

Seems pretty innocuous, right?

It uses a default namespace declaration. Alternatively (equivalently) each element can be qualified. And the prefix can be anything, e.g.,

    <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
        <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
        <attackNOW:author>Eric D. Beinhocker</attackNOW:author>
        <attackNOW:date>2006</attackNOW:date>
        <attackNOW:ISBN>1-57851-777-X</attackNOW:ISBN>
        <attackNOW:publisher>Harvard Business School Press</attackNOW:publisher>
        <attackNOW:cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
    </attackNOW:book>

Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?

But the problem isn't in how it "looks." The problem is that, as far as XML tools are concerned, the two forms are exactly equivalent:

- If the first form is schema-valid, 
  then the second form is schema-valid. 

- If the first form can be parsed by an 
  XML parser, then the second form can 
  be parsed by an XML parser.
 
- If the first form can be processed by 
  an XSLT transform, then the second form 
  can be processed by an XML transform.

So, a guard, processing XML documents, using XML tools, may be completely oblivious to the covert information being passed via the namespace prefix. You may even say that the prefix is "invisible" to the guard.


REPLACE NAMESPACE PREFIXES

The good news is that, whatever prefixes the XML document contains, they can be replaced with controlled prefixes. Here is an XSLT transform that replaces the namespace prefix with N103: (Thanks to Ken Holman for this XSLT)

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="US-ASCII"?>
<xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
                version="1.0">

    <xsl:param name="use-this-prefix"/>

    <xsl:template match="*[namespace-uri(.)]">
        <xsl:element name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
                     namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
            <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
       </xsl:element>
    </xsl:template>

    <xsl:template match="@*[namespace-uri(.)]">
       <xsl:attribute name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
                      namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
           <xsl:value-of select="."/>
       </xsl:attribute>
    </xsl:template>

    <xsl:template match="@*|node()"><!--identity for all other nodes-->
       <xsl:copy>
           <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
       </xsl:copy>
    </xsl:template>

</xsl:stylesheet>


COMMENTS

I welcome your comments.

/Roger

No need to involve namespace prefixes here. Simply use comments:

<!-- ATTACK, Language="MyPreferredHackingLanguage"

  [
         A program in MyPreferredHackingLanguage that destroys the world.
  ]

-->

As a matter of fact I did use exactly this approach in the past when I
was working for a payroll company in Sydney, to implement a new
feature, desired urgently by a customer, without changes to the used
languages/protocols, and everybody was happy (if a little-bit
surprized this was possible)   :)


Cheers,
Dimitre Novatchev
---------------------------------------
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
---------------------------------------
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
-------------------------------------
Never fight an inanimate object
-------------------------------------
You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
you're doing is work or play




On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
> INTRODUCTION
>
> The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are trying to prevent the release of unauthorized information at an enclave boundary. Namespace prefixes provide a ready channel for transmitting information out of the protected enclave.  That channel is overlooked by most XML applications, expect for an application that is specifically looking for that information.
>
>
> THE PROBLEM
>
> Consider this XML document containing data about a book:
>
>    <book xmlns="http://www.book.org">
>        <title>The Origin of Wealth</title>
>        <author>Eric D. Beinhocker</author>
>        <date>2006</date>
>        <ISBN>1-57851-777-X</ISBN>
>        <publisher>Harvard Business School Press</publisher>
>        <cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>    </book>
>
> Seems pretty innocuous, right?
>
> It uses a default namespace declaration. Alternatively (equivalently) each element can be qualified. And the prefix can be anything, e.g.,
>
>    <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
>        <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
>        <attackNOW:author>Eric D. Beinhocker</attackNOW:author>
>        <attackNOW:date>2006</attackNOW:date>
>        <attackNOW:ISBN>1-57851-777-X</attackNOW:ISBN>
>        <attackNOW:publisher>Harvard Business School Press</attackNOW:publisher>
>        <attackNOW:cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>    </attackNOW:book>
>
> Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?
>
> But the problem isn't in how it "looks." The problem is that, as far as XML tools are concerned, the two forms are exactly equivalent:
>
> - If the first form is schema-valid,
>  then the second form is schema-valid.
>
> - If the first form can be parsed by an
>  XML parser, then the second form can
>  be parsed by an XML parser.
>
> - If the first form can be processed by
>  an XSLT transform, then the second form
>  can be processed by an XML transform.
>
> So, a guard, processing XML documents, using XML tools, may be completely oblivious to the covert information being passed via the namespace prefix. You may even say that the prefix is "invisible" to the guard.
>
>
> REPLACE NAMESPACE PREFIXES
>
> The good news is that, whatever prefixes the XML document contains, they can be replaced with controlled prefixes. Here is an XSLT transform that replaces the namespace prefix with N103: (Thanks to Ken Holman for this XSLT)
>
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="US-ASCII"?>
> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
>                version="1.0">
>
>    <xsl:param name="use-this-prefix"/>
>
>    <xsl:template match="*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>        <xsl:element name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                     namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>            <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>       </xsl:element>
>    </xsl:template>
>
>    <xsl:template match="@*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>       <xsl:attribute name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                      namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>           <xsl:value-of select="."/>
>       </xsl:attribute>
>    </xsl:template>
>
>    <xsl:template match="@*|node()"><!--identity for all other nodes-->
>       <xsl:copy>
>           <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>       </xsl:copy>
>    </xsl:template>
>
> </xsl:stylesheet>
>
>
> COMMENTS
>
> I welcome your comments.
>
> /Roger
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>



-- 
Cheers,
Dimitre Novatchev
---------------------------------------
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
---------------------------------------
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
-------------------------------------
Never fight an inanimate object
-------------------------------------
You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
you're doing is work or play
-------------------------------------
I enjoy the massacre of ads. This sentence will slaughter ads without
a messy bloodbath.

I must be missing something. If they are equivalent than what is the 
problem? the prefix is just to get you to the URL and it is really the URL 
that determines the uniqueness of an element.

..dan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Vint

Specializing in Panoramic Images
http://www.dvint.com

Voice:502-749-6179

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
> INTRODUCTION
>
> The problem described below occurs with XML 'guards' that are trying to prevent the release of unauthorized information at an enclave boundary. Namespace prefixes provide a ready channel for transmitting information out of the protected enclave.  That channel is overlooked by most XML applications, expect for an application that is specifically looking for that information.
>
>
> THE PROBLEM
>
> Consider this XML document containing data about a book:
>
>    <book xmlns="http://www.book.org">
>        <title>The Origin of Wealth</title>
>        <author>Eric D. Beinhocker</author>
>        <date>2006</date>
>        <ISBN>1-57851-777-X</ISBN>
>        <publisher>Harvard Business School Press</publisher>
>        <cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>    </book>
>
> Seems pretty innocuous, right?
>
> It uses a default namespace declaration. Alternatively (equivalently) each element can be qualified. And the prefix can be anything, e.g.,
>
>    <attackNOW:book xmlns:attackNOW="http://www.book.org">
>        <attackNOW:title>The Origin of Wealth</attackNOW:title>
>        <attackNOW:author>Eric D. Beinhocker</attackNOW:author>
>        <attackNOW:date>2006</attackNOW:date>
>        <attackNOW:ISBN>1-57851-777-X</attackNOW:ISBN>
>        <attackNOW:publisher>Harvard Business School Press</attackNOW:publisher>
>        <attackNOW:cost currency="USD">29.95</cost>
>    </attackNOW:book>
>
> Not so innocent-looking anymore, is it?
>
> But the problem isn't in how it "looks." The problem is that, as far as XML tools are concerned, the two forms are exactly equivalent:
>
> - If the first form is schema-valid,
>  then the second form is schema-valid.
>
> - If the first form can be parsed by an
>  XML parser, then the second form can
>  be parsed by an XML parser.
>
> - If the first form can be processed by
>  an XSLT transform, then the second form
>  can be processed by an XML transform.
>
> So, a guard, processing XML documents, using XML tools, may be completely oblivious to the covert information being passed via the namespace prefix. You may even say that the prefix is "invisible" to the guard.
>
>
> REPLACE NAMESPACE PREFIXES
>
> The good news is that, whatever prefixes the XML document contains, they can be replaced with controlled prefixes. Here is an XSLT transform that replaces the namespace prefix with N103: (Thanks to Ken Holman for this XSLT)
>
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="US-ASCII"?>
> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
>                version="1.0">
>
>    <xsl:param name="use-this-prefix"/>
>
>    <xsl:template match="*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>        <xsl:element name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                     namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>            <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>       </xsl:element>
>    </xsl:template>
>
>    <xsl:template match="@*[namespace-uri(.)]">
>       <xsl:attribute name="{$use-this-prefix}{local-name()}"
>                      namespace="{namespace-uri(.)}">
>           <xsl:value-of select="."/>
>       </xsl:attribute>
>    </xsl:template>
>
>    <xsl:template match="@*|node()"><!--identity for all other nodes-->
>       <xsl:copy>
>           <xsl:apply-templates select="@*|node()"/>
>       </xsl:copy>
>    </xsl:template>
>
> </xsl:stylesheet>
>
>
> COMMENTS
>
> I welcome your comments.
>
> /Roger
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>

eXist-db has Atomic Wiki which the eXist developers wrote and use 
themselves.

http://atomic.exist-db.org/blogs/Atomic/

Dave

Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an open source, XQuery based Content Management
> System or Blog Engine?
>
> My requirements are that this run on Linux and an open source XML DB
> such as eXist or Sedna.
>
> I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have written this yet. If
> one doesn't exist, then I may just have to write my own. If one does
> exist, I may just be able to use and contribute to it.
>
> If I have to write my own, I'm torn between eXist and Sedna. Sedna
> seems much more scalable, but eXist has a lot more of the
> functionality I need built in that 'd have to recreate for Sedna
> first.
>
>   

I presume Coccon framework is still alive. Ametys CMS is a pretty
famous CMS in my area. It is Cocoon based.

Just my 2c.

On Friday, December 25, 2009, Elliotte Rusty Harold <elharo@ibiblio.org> wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an open source, XQuery based Content Management
> System or Blog Engine?
>
> My requirements are that this run on Linux and an open source XML DB
> such as eXist or Sedna.
>
> I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have written this yet. If
> one doesn't exist, then I may just have to write my own. If one does
> exist, I may just be able to use and contribute to it.
>
> If I have to write my own, I'm torn between eXist and Sedna. Sedna
> seems much more scalable, but eXist has a lot more of the
> functionality I need built in that 'd have to recreate for Sedna
> first.
>
> --
> Elliotte Rusty Harold
> elharo@ibiblio.org
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>

Is anyone aware of an open source, XQuery based Content Management
System or Blog Engine?

My requirements are that this run on Linux and an open source XML DB
such as eXist or Sedna.

I'm a little surprised that no one seems to have written this yet. If
one doesn't exist, then I may just have to write my own. If one does
exist, I may just be able to use and contribute to it.

If I have to write my own, I'm torn between eXist and Sedna. Sedna
seems much more scalable, but eXist has a lot more of the
functionality I need built in that 'd have to recreate for Sedna
first.

-- 
Elliotte Rusty Harold
elharo@ibiblio.org

Most likely from 'data element'.

Several decades ago the predominant programming languages included 
FORTRAN, COBOL, ALGOL and PL/I. Applications typically operated with an 
ad hoc data store. For file-oriented input (as opposed to streams),  
programming specifications typically included a record layout, showing 
the fields or data elements that comprised a record. When projects were 
done with programming teams, a data dictionary was used to ensure 
consistency of the data elements (size, type, location in a record).

With the emergence of record management sytems (e.g. DEC RMS) and 
databases, applications written in different languages could access the 
same data on disk. There was a need for tools to ensure consistency of 
the definition of data elements across projects and programming 
languages.

Common Data Dictionary software, repository-based design, data modeling 
software and other CASE tools emerged as solutions.

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
>   <book>...</book>
>
> Why "element"?
>
> Who decided to call it element?

I am also curious to know, the answer to this.

> When was the term first used?

perhaps, SGML coined this termed, as pointed by our friend.

> In hindsight, is there a better term?

I won't say so. The name "element" is just cool.


-- 
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi

At 7:27 AM -0500 12/24/09, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>This is a book element:
>
>    <book>...</book>
>
>Why "element"?
>
>Who decided to call it element?
>
>When was the term first used?
>
>There is the Periodic Table of elements. Is that where the term comes from?
>
>In hindsight, is there a better term?


The developer(s) of anything new have several options:
  * keep it as the idea of one and only one person, or
  * find a way to communicate about it.

Words are the way our species communicates abstract ideas, and that 
means when there is something new to talk about, or a new distinction 
to be made, they must either:
  * make up new words, or
  * adopt/adapt existing words.

Both are confusing. New words are hard to remember, pronounce, and 
spell consistently. Adopted/adapted words can be misleading because 
people already have meanings for them.

It is my opinion that the jargon of any field will seem silly and 
confusing to those new to it, and to some extent arbitrary even to 
those familiar with it.

And what prompted me to state the obvious? Your request for a better 
term. There could have been other terms, but any other term for this 
concept would either be a made-up-word or a re-purposed word, and 
could prompt the same question. There simply aren't good options for 
naming new things.

-- Tommie
-- 

======================================================================
B. Tommie Usdin                        mailto:btusdin@mulberrytech.com
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                http://www.mulberrytech.com
17 West Jefferson Street                           Phone: 301/315-9631
Suite 207                                    Direct Line: 301/315-9634
Rockville, MD  20850                                 Fax: 301/315-8285
----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in XML and SGML
======================================================================

Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> It is historical curiosity. I would like to understand the history of
> XML. To that end, I'd like to know how the term "element" came about.

I’m pretty sure you’re going to have to do some time in the library.
Y’know, the place with the stacks of ground-up, boiled, pressed trees.
The term “element” in markup goes back at least as far as GML, and I am
guessing that they used a CS term of art at the time.  Various journals
might have more, and possibly the original coiner of the term in this
sense, but I don’t know that anyone still on this list was present at
the time.

~Chris
-- 
Chris Maden, text nerd  <URL: http://crism.maden.org/ >
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of
 the human mind to correlate all its contents.” — H.P. Lovecraft
GnuPG Fingerprint: C6E4 E2A9 C9F8 71AC 9724 CAA3 19F8 6677 0077 C319

If the symbols of the language are atoms (geez, does everything derive 
from LISP?), then aggregations into tokens are, naturally, elements.  No 
surprise, then, that some elements -- words -- are considered toxic and/or 
radioactive.

        /r$

--
STSM, WebSphere Appliance Architect
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/soma/

Guess it's a good thing they didn't see a rhinoceros!

On Dec 24, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Liam Quin wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 07:27:51AM -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>> This is a book element:
>> 
>>   <book>...</book>
>> 
>> Why "element"?
>> Who decided to call it element? 
> 
> Actually it is because of a transcription error.
> 
> Descriptive markup was first used in the 1950s by naturalists
> in Africa, and read out loud over the radio to a base station
> where they were carefully written down with a pen.
> 
> The person at the base station misheard and wrote "element"
> instead of "elephant" and the mistake has stuck with us
> ever since.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Liam
> 
> -- 
> Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
> http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 

 
Hi Frank,

> Is this idle curiosity, or do you think there's some problem 
> with the term "element" that would be relieved by using some 
> other term?

It is historical curiosity. I would like to understand the history of XML. To that end, I'd like to know how the term "element" came about.

/Roger

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Manola [mailto:fmanola@acm.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:26 AM
> To: Costello, Roger L.
> Cc: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'
> Subject: Re:  Where does the term "element" come from?
> 
> 
> On Dec 24, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Folks,
> > 
> > This is a book element:
> > 
> >   <book>...</book>
> > 
> > Why "element"?
> 
> The direct answer is because the XML spec says so.
> 
> > 
> > Who decided to call it element? 
> > 
> > When was the term first used?
> > 
> > There is the Periodic Table of elements. Is that where the 
> term comes from?
> > 
> > In hindsight, is there a better term?
> 
> Is this idle curiosity, or do you think there's some problem 
> with the term "element" that would be relieved by using some 
> other term?  After all, I suppose you could ask similar 
> questions about the things in the periodic table couldn't you?  
> 
> 
> > 
> > /Roger
> > 
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
> > 
> > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> > 
> > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> > 
> 
> 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 07:27:51AM -0500, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
> This is a book element:
> 
>    <book>...</book>
> 
> Why "element"?
> Who decided to call it element? 

Actually it is because of a transcription error.

Descriptive markup was first used in the 1950s by naturalists
in Africa, and read out loud over the radio to a base station
where they were carefully written down with a pen.

The person at the base station misheard and wrote "element"
instead of "elephant" and the mistake has stuck with us
ever since.

:-)

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/

I am going to guess that since GML got it's Ideas from GCA GenCode in
the early to
mid 60's, which eventually lead to the formation of the SGML group.
that the Graphics
industry would use Element in a lot of area's.

Still trying to find early specs from that time period.   But will
probably some dead tree
searching to find that time period of info.  Element did exist in the
Original GML timeframe
of the late 60's.

Douglas

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Mukul Gandhi <gandhi.mukul@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
>>   <book>...</book>
>>
>> Why "element"?
>>
>> Who decided to call it element?
>
> I am also curious to know, the answer to this.
>
>> When was the term first used?
>
> perhaps, SGML coined this termed, as pointed by our friend.
>
>> In hindsight, is there a better term?
>
> I won't say so. The name "element" is just cool.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Mukul Gandhi
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>

On Dec 24, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> This is a book element:
> 
>   <book>...</book>
> 
> Why "element"?

The direct answer is because the XML spec says so.

> 
> Who decided to call it element? 
> 
> When was the term first used?
> 
> There is the Periodic Table of elements. Is that where the term comes from?
> 
> In hindsight, is there a better term?

Is this idle curiosity, or do you think there's some problem with the term "element" that would be relieved by using some other term?  After all, I suppose you could ask similar questions about the things in the periodic table couldn't you?  


> 
> /Roger
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 

This word has no provable etymology. We may reasonably impute from the history
of its use a basic meaning, as the OED puts it, 'a component unit of a series'.
There has been since Roman times the fanciful etymology that in the Phoenician,
Greek and Etruscan alphabets the longest run of letters common to all three is
the sequence L-M-N; that is, the largest component unit of the alphabetical
series is the L-M-N-tum, or 'elementum'.

Best wishes to all for the New Year.

Walter

"Costello, Roger L." wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> This is a book element:
>
>    <book>...</book>
>
> Why "element"?
>
> Who decided to call it element?
>
> When was the term first used?
>
> There is the Periodic Table of elements. Is that where the term comes from?
>
> In hindsight, is there a better term?

Hi Folks,

This is a book element:

   <book>...</book>

Why "element"?

Who decided to call it element? 

When was the term first used?

There is the Periodic Table of elements. Is that where the term comes from?

In hindsight, is there a better term?

/Roger

> 
> which approach is better, an image element that contains the location of a GIF file:
> 
>    <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>
> 
> Or, an image element that contains a child element, which contains the location of the GIF file:
>    
>     <image>
>         <src>images/mighty_oj.gif</src>
>     </image>

At that level of generality, without knowing anything about the rest of
the document these approaches are identical (just rename image to foo and
src to image  in the second example). So it's impossible to make any
comparison.


> Likewise, which is better, a retailer
Clearly that's just the same example with different element names.

> Using the second approach all this information can be provided in the
> XML document: 

It can be provided somewhere in either solution.

> The XSLT is not hardcoded to add a specific set of attributes;

Of course it is! It has the hardcoded assumption that someone has gone
to the trouble of designing an xml format with exactly the same
attribute names as html but using elements rather than xml attributes. 
I suppose it's possible someone has done that but unlikely.

Far more likely is they just use the same attributes in which case you
can just use <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/> or that the element names are
different to the html attribute names in which case you need to encode
a translation table in your conversion and "hardwire" specific names in
the source and result document.

In any case any features you can do with the second form you can clearly
do with the equivalent 1st form, it just depends where the additional
metadata is placed

<imagedata>
   <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>
   <alt>...</alt>
...
</imagedate>

for example.

David


________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________

XML Prague 2010 Final Call for Papers

This is the final (really) call for papers.

http://www.xmlprague.cz/2010/call-for-papers.html

Please submit your papers for XML Prague as the CFP deadline approaches.

   * December 21st - End of CFP (extended abstract or full paper)
   * January 6th - Notification of acceptance/rejection of paper to authors
   * January 22nd - Final paper

If you have any question regarding submission process please contact
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-------------------------

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-------------------------

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-------------------------

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-------------------------

I have to concur with David's critiques, but I think I can generalize 
the point you're trying to make: data-driven code is cool. The less your 
code has to know about individual names in the input data, the more 
general it can be.

However, in practice, I find that data-driven transformations are 
overrated. I'd rather design an XML structure that fits well with the 
data. For example, I'd want to use attributes when I know the value will 
only ever be text. And then I'd prefer clear, elegant code using a 
combination of generic rules ("data-driven", if you like) and rules 
using hard-coded names, especially as they make explicit my intentions.

Purely data-driven code is ugly boilerplate. I'd only make special XML 
design concessions for data-driven processing when the input contains a 
huge list of properties (such as when being dumped from a database).

Evan Lenz
http://lenzconsulting.com


David Carlisle wrote:
>> which approach is better, an image element that contains the location of a GIF file:
>>
>>    <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>
>>
>> Or, an image element that contains a child element, which contains the location of the GIF file:
>>    
>>     <image>
>>         <src>images/mighty_oj.gif</src>
>>     </image>
>>     
>
> At that level of generality, without knowing anything about the rest of
> the document these approaches are identical (just rename image to foo and
> src to image  in the second example). So it's impossible to make any
> comparison.
>
>
>   
>> Likewise, which is better, a retailer
>>     
> Clearly that's just the same example with different element names.
>
>   
>> Using the second approach all this information can be provided in the
>> XML document: 
>>     
>
> It can be provided somewhere in either solution.
>
>   
>> The XSLT is not hardcoded to add a specific set of attributes;
>>     
>
> Of course it is! It has the hardcoded assumption that someone has gone
> to the trouble of designing an xml format with exactly the same
> attribute names as html but using elements rather than xml attributes. 
> I suppose it's possible someone has done that but unlikely.
>
> Far more likely is they just use the same attributes in which case you
> can just use <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/> or that the element names are
> different to the html attribute names in which case you need to encode
> a translation table in your conversion and "hardwire" specific names in
> the source and result document.
>
> In any case any features you can do with the second form you can clearly
> do with the equivalent 1st form, it just depends where the additional
> metadata is placed
>
> <imagedata>
>    <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>
>    <alt>...</alt>
> ...
> </imagedate>
>
> for example.
>
> David
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd is a company registered in England
> and Wales with company number 1249803. The registered office is:
> Wilkinson House, Jordan Hill Road, Oxford OX2 8DR, United Kingdom.
>
> This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is
> powered by MessageLabs. 
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
>   

Hi Folks,

Which approach is better, an image element that contains the location of a GIF file:

   <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>

Or, an image element that contains a child element, which contains the location of the GIF file:
   
    <image>
        <src>images/mighty_oj.gif</src>
    </image>


Likewise, which is better, a retailer element that contains the URL to a seller:

   <retailer>http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm</retailer>

Or, a retailer element that contains a child element, which contains the URL to a seller:

    <retailer>
        <href>http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm</href>
    </retailer>


The second approach (use child element) has a nice advantage which I describe here.

Suppose you wish to transform the <image> element into an HTML <img> element, i.e., transform the XML into this:

    <img src="images/mighty-oj.gif" />
  
If the XML uses this approach: 

   <image>images/mighty_oj.gif</image>

Then the transformation may be accomplished using XSLT like this:

    <img src="{image}" />

But this is a hardcoded solution. Furthermore, it's not extensible. Let's see why.


For an HTML <img> element we should provide not only the source location of the image (using the src attribute), but also alternative text (using the alt attribute). Further, to assist browsers in allocating space for the image, we should provide the width and height of the image. Using the second approach all this information can be provided in the XML document:

    <image>
        <src>images/mighty_oj.gif</src>
        <alt>OJ Home Juicer</alt>
        <width>276</width>
        <height>281</height>
    </image>

Now the <image> element can be transformed into an HTML <img> element, and the attributes of <img> can be dynamically added. Here's how to do that using XSLT:

    <img>
        <xsl:for-each select="image/*">
            <xsl:attribute name="{name(.)}">
                <xsl:value-of select="." />
            </xsl:attribute>
        </xsl:for-each>
    </img>

The XSLT is not hardcoded to add a specific set of attributes; it adds as attributes whatever child elements there are of <image>. 

Furthermore, the XML document can be extended; here I add a <title> and <class> element:

    <image>
        <src>images/mighty_oj.gif</src>
        <alt>OJ Home Juicer</alt>
        <width>276</width>
        <height>281</height>
        <title>Simple, inexpensive juicer</title>
        <class>juicer</class>
    </image>

The XSLT code requires no change. 


Thus, we see several benefits to the second approach:

   1. The transformation code can be unaware of the 
      specific set of attributes to be added to the 
      <img> element.

   2. The XML can be extended without changing the 
      transformation code.


The same arguments apply to the retailer example. Let's see.

Suppose you wish to transform the <retailer> element into an HTML <a> element, i.e., transform the XML into this:

    <a href="http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm">
        http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm
    </a>
  
If the XML uses this approach: 

   <retailer>http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm</retailer>

Then the transformation may be accomplished using this XSLT:

    <a href="{retailer}">
        <xsl:value-of select="retailer" />
    </a>

However, this is a hardcoded solution. Furthermore, it's not extensible. Let's see why.


For an HTML <a> element we should provide not only the URL (using the href attribute), but also the language of the target document (using the hreflang attribute). Using the second approach all this information can be provided in the XML document:

    <retailer>
        <href>http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm</href>
        <hreflang>en</hreflang>
    </retailer>

Now the <retailer> element can be transformed into an HTML <a> element, and all the attributes of <a> can be dynamically added. Here's how to do that using XSLT:

    <a>
        <xsl:for-each select="retailer/*">
            <xsl:attribute name="{name(.)}">
                <xsl:value-of select="." />
            </xsl:attribute>
        </xsl:for-each>
        <xsl:value-of select="retailer/href" />
    </a>

The XSLT is not hardcoded to add a specific set of attributes. 

Furthermore, the XML document can be extended; here I add a <title> element: 

    <retailer>
        <href>http://www.thewhitewhale.com/oj.htm</href>
        <hreflang>en</hreflang>
        <title>Retailer for the Mighty OJ juicer</title>
    </retailer>

The XSLT code requires no change.


RECAP

If an XML element is to be transformed into an element with attributes then design the element like this:

   <element>
      <attribute-name>attribute-data</attribute-name>
   </element>

Not like this:

   <element>data</element>


Comments?

/Roger

Hi,

I am happy to announce that a new version of oXygen XML Editor is 
available from our website
http://www.oxygenxml.com

Version 11.1 of oXygen XML Editor improves the XML authoring 
capabilities, the support for XML development and also a number of core 
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Best Regards,
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-- 
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<oXygen/> XML Editor, Schema Editor and XSLT Editor/Debugger
http://www.oxygenxml.com

PsychoPath 1.1M4 a Java 5 (1.5) or greater XPath 2.0 Schema Aware
processor is now available for download.

It is packaged in two forms as standalone jar and as part of an eclipse
P2 update site.  It does depend on java_cup and xerces-j (for xml schema
support).

PsychoPath is also included in the latest WTP 3.2 Milestone 4 build as 
well.  Information on obtaining the latest milestone can be found in the 
Getting Started section of the user manual.

http://wiki.eclipse.org/PsychoPathXPathProcessor/UserManual#Getting_PsychoPath


PsychoPath now has a pass rating of 99.8% of the W3C XPath 2.0 portion
of the XQuery Test suite. It is fully schema aware including the ability
to handle user defined data types.   There are about 12 tests left to go
to bring it into full compliance with the test suite.

New in 1.1M4:

* This version also works with with any DOM Level 3 implementation.  If 
it can not obtain the PSVI it will default to non-schemawareness mode. 
It has been tested with both the Xerces-J DOM and the eclipse Web Tools 
Platform's DOM implementation.

* Enhancements to the test suite coverage for the core xpath 2.0 
functions and operators.  All functions and operators now have unit 
tests and are implemented.

* The build system for psychopath now makes use of FindBugs, and PMD 
static analysis.  All reports are published on the public build system 
for community review as well as all unit test results.

https://build.eclipse.org/hudson/view/WTP/job/cbi-wtp-wst.xsl.psychopath/

PsychoPath provides the only known open source Java XPath 2.0 Schema
Aware processor. User Manual and sample code can be found at:

http://wiki.eclipse.org/PsychoPathXPathProcessor/UserManual

Thanks to Andrea Bittau for the original code donation. Current
development is done by Dave Carver, Mukul Gandhi, and Jesper Moller.

XML Prague 2010 Final Call for Papers

Please submit your papers for XML Prague as the CFP deadline approaches.

   * December 21st - End of CFP (extended abstract or full paper)
   * January 6th - Notification of acceptance/rejection of paper to authors
   * January 22nd - Final paper

If you have any question regarding submission process please contact
Jirka Kosek at jirka.kosek@xmlprague.cz.

on behalf,
XML Prague Committee

-------------------------
Jim Fuller
http://www.xmlprague.cz



-- 
cheers, Jim

-------------------------
XML Prague
http://www.xmlprague.cz

The XQuery working Group has just published new versions of the 
following specifications:

XQuery 1.1: An XML Query Language
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xquery-11-20091215/

XQueryX 1.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xqueryx-11-20091215/

XQuery 1.1 Requirements
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xquery-11-requirements-20091215/

These include a number of significant new XQuery features, including:

* group by clause in FLWOR Expressions
* tumbling window and sliding window in FLWOR Expressions
* count clause in FLWOR Expressions
* allowing empty in 3.8.2 For Clause (for functionality similar to
   outer joins in SQL)
* try/catch expressions
* Dynamic function invocation
* Inline functions
* Private functions
* Nondeterministic functions
* Switch expressions
* Computed namespace constructors
* Output declarations

The XQuery and XSL Working Groups have published First Public Working 
Drafts of the following specifications:

XPath 2.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xpath-21-20091215/

XQuery and XPath Data Model 1.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xpath-datamodel-11-20091215/

XPath and XQuery Functions and Operators 1.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xpath-functions-11-20091215/

XSLT and XQuery Serialization 1.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-xslt-xquery-serialization-11-20091215/

Jonathan

Julian Reschke wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "just" five years ago David Orchard and Richard Salz proposed a URN 
> namespace to represent QNames (and expanded names). For some reason 
> (lack of a use case?) that never was finished.
> 
> In the meantime, I *do* have a use case, so I asked the original authors 
> for permission to restart work.
> 
> The new draft (01) essentially is identical to the draft from 2004, 
> except for updated references and boilerplate, and an in-document issues 
> list.
> ...

Minor correction: while looking at 
<http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.txt> I 
realized that the document from which I started apparently already had a 
few changes from the last published draft; apologies. (One change is an 
extended prose explaining the URN scheme, the other one is a paragraph 
about, um, XML 1.1, which I already identified as something we may want 
to take out again).

Best regards, Julian

Hi,

"just" five years ago David Orchard and Richard Salz proposed a URN 
namespace to represent QNames (and expanded names). For some reason 
(lack of a use case?) that never was finished.

In the meantime, I *do* have a use case, so I asked the original authors 
for permission to restart work.

The new draft (01) essentially is identical to the draft from 2004, 
except for updated references and boilerplate, and an in-document issues 
list.

I plan to work through these issues (hopefully with participation from 
this mailing list) over the next few weeks.

Best regards, Julian

PS: HTML version at 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.html>.

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 	Title           : The QName URN Namespace
> 	Author(s)       : D. Orchard, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 10
> 	Date            : 2009-12-15
> 
> This specification defines a Uniform Resource Name namespace for XML
> namespace-qualified names, QNames.  As long as the URN is encoded in
> the same character set as the document containing the original QName,
> the Qname URN provides enough information to maintain the semantics,
> and optionally the exact syntax, of the original name.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

For info, the XPath 2.1 and XQuery 1.1 drafts (which should be published
very soon) allow the syntax

"uri":local

wherever a QName is currently allowed, primarily for convenience when
generating context-free paths that can be used to identify a node within a
document, and any other application where one wants to write XPath in a way
that is not sensitive to the namespace context.

This is of course addressing a different, but related requirement.

(It wasn't possible to use Clark notation {uri}local because of grammar
ambiguities in XQuery).

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Reschke [mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de] 
> Sent: 15 December 2009 12:39
> To: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org '
> Subject:  "The QName URN Namespace" 
> (draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> "just" five years ago David Orchard and Richard Salz proposed 
> a URN namespace to represent QNames (and expanded names). For 
> some reason (lack of a use case?) that never was finished.
> 
> In the meantime, I *do* have a use case, so I asked the 
> original authors for permission to restart work.
> 
> The new draft (01) essentially is identical to the draft from 
> 2004, except for updated references and boilerplate, and an 
> in-document issues list.
> 
> I plan to work through these issues (hopefully with 
> participation from this mailing list) over the next few weeks.
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 
> PS: HTML version at
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.html>.
> 
> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> > 
> > 	Title           : The QName URN Namespace
> > 	Author(s)       : D. Orchard, et al.
> > 	Filename        : draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.txt
> > 	Pages           : 10
> > 	Date            : 2009-12-15
> > 
> > This specification defines a Uniform Resource Name 
> namespace for XML 
> > namespace-qualified names, QNames.  As long as the URN is 
> encoded in 
> > the same character set as the document containing the 
> original QName, 
> > the Qname URN provides enough information to maintain the 
> semantics, 
> > and optionally the exact syntax, of the original name.
> > 
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rsalz-qname-urn-01.txt
> > 
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > 
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader 
> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the 
> > Internet-Draft.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > I-D-Announce mailing list
> > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> _________
> 
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by 
> OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To 
> minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
> 
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org List archive: 
> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
> 

Costello, Roger L. wrote:


> Incremental updates, processing in any order or even in parallel, and program validation ... awesome!
>
> What I've just described is XSLT (and XSD 1.1 for validation).
>
> XSLT and XSD 1.1 rocks!
>   
 I don't get it. What is new? 

If you are talking about persistent objects with validating listeners, 
that is the way that for example many GUI systems work, isn't it?

Cheers
Rick Jelliffe

On 30 Nov 2009, at 09:04 , Modulus Solutions-Inc wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Please help me with Xquery below:
>
> I would like to get all the patent_number records where  
> person_name_full="Huber, Avigdor"
>
>
> fn:doc()/document/CMSdoc/doc_type_grp/patent_pub_grp/patent_number
> fn:doc()/document/CMSdoc/doc_general/authors_grp/author_grp/ 
> person_name[person_name_full="Huber, Avigdor"]
>

I'm not quite sure what your two XPath expressions signify (so
I may not have understood your question).  If you mean that you
want to match all of the CMSdoc elements which have a patent
number and which have an author named Avigdor Huber, then you
might try something like

   for $doc in fn:doc()/document/CMSdoc
   where $f/doc_type_grp/patent_pub_grp/patent_number
         and
         $f/doc_general/authors_grp/author_grp/person_name
           [person_name_full = "Huber, Avigdor"]
   return $f

Or just

   fn:doc()/document/CMSdoc
     [doc_type_grp/patent_pub_grp/patent_number
      and
      doc_general/authors_grp/author_grp/person_name
        [person_name_full="Huber, Avigdor"]
     ]

-- 
****************************************************************
* C. M. Sperberg-McQueen, Black Mesa Technologies LLC
* http://www.blackmesatech.com
* http://cmsmcq.com/mib
* http://balisage.net
****************************************************************

Roger--

Re the subject:  I think there are already too many people who write programs that don't do anything;  no additional encouragement is necessary.

There are also "cons" to the approach you're describing.  You might want to do some background reading in topics such as logic programming, relational programming, and rule-based programming.  That's essentially what you're talking about (with the addition of angle-brackets).  

--Frank

On Dec 10, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Recently I read something [1] that is very exciting and want to share what I learned. 
> 
> Rules are important. And they are everywhere.
> 
> A key new feature of XML Schema 1.1 is the ability to express rules. For example, you can express this rule:
> 
>    Level 1 managers can sign off on purchase requests 
>    that do not exceed $10K.
> 
> Rules are all about expressing relationships. Recall from your school days you learned this mathematical relationship:
> 
>    2 + 3 = 3 + 2
> 
> This relationship uses specific values. You learned that the relationship can be generalized: 
> 
>    For any value x and any value y:
> 
>        x + y = y + x
> 
> You can call this a relationship or a rule. And it always holds true.
> 
> 
> Here's another example: 
> 
>    A rectangle that is 6 units in length and 
>    5 units in breadth has this area:
> 
>        30 = 6 * 5
> 
> This can be generalized to:
> 
>    Area = Length * Breadth
> 
> It is important to recognize that this relationship is not "assigning" Area the result of multiplying Length and Breadth, i.e., it isn't doing anything. Rather, it is a statement of the relationship that exists between the Area of a rectangle and its Length and Breadth: 
> 
>    If you multiply Length and Breadth the result is 
>    the Area of the rectangle.
> 
> x, y, Area, Length, and Width are called variables. They are called variables, not because their values vary, but because they are symbols that denote any value.
> 
> 
> One more example: 
> 
>   The sequence (3, 2) is the reverse of this sequence (2, 3).  
>   We can express the relationship like this:
> 
>       (3, 2) = reverse((2, 3))
> 
> 
> In all three examples the expressions are not doing anything; rather, they are stating relationships/rules. 
> 
> Imagine writing a program which doesn't do anything; instead, it is simply a collection of relationships/rules.
> 
> There are several reasons for doing this:
> 
> Your program can be executed in parallel or in any order. For example, consider the following program which consists of two statements:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> Variables:
>      Let s1 denote the sequence (2, 3).
>      Let s2 denote a sequence.
>      Let Length denote the value 6.
>      Let Breadth denote the value 5.
>      Let Area denote an area of a rectangle.
> 
> Program:
>        1. Area = Length * Breadth
>        2. s2 = reverse(s1)
> 
> Output:
>        The area is: Area
>        The reverse of the sequence is: s2
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> Clearly the two program statements can be executed in any order or even in parallel.
> 
> Furthermore, suppose the program outputs this XML document:
> 
> <Document>
>      <Rectangle>
>            <Length>6</Length>
>            <Breadth>5</Breadth>
>            <Area>30</Area>
>      </Rectangle>
>      <Sequence>
>            <Original>
>                  <First>2</First>
>                  <Second>3</Second>
>            </Original>
>            <Reversed>
>                  <First>3</First>
>                  <Second>2</Second>
>            </Reversed>
>      </Sequence>
> </Document>
> 
> Then we can use XSD 1.1 assertions to validate the program's output (and thereby implicitly validate the program):
> 
> <assertion test="Area = Length * Breadth" />
> <assertion test="(Reversed/First, Reversed/Second) = reverse((Original/First, Original/Second))" />
> 
> 
> We've seen two benefits to writing programs as a collection of relationships/rules:
> 
> First, your program statements can be executed in any order or even in parallel. This means that your program doesn't have to run on a von Neumann machine.
> 
> Second, using XSD 1.1 assertions you can (implicitly) validate your program.
> 
> Wow!  Wow!
> 
> And there's a third benefit: the program statements can be incrementally updated. In the above program, suppose the rectangle is stretched, thus resulting in a new Length and Breadth, that's okay because it simply results in updating this relationship:
> 
>    Area = Length * Breadth
> 
> The other relationship is not impacted.
> 
> Incremental updates, processing in any order or even in parallel, and program validation ... awesome!
> 
> What I've just described is XSLT (and XSD 1.1 for validation).
> 
> XSLT and XSD 1.1 rocks!
> 
> /Roger
> 
> [1] XSLT 2.0 and XPath 2.0 by Michael Kay, p. 986 - 987.
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Hi Folks,

Recently I read something [1] that is very exciting and want to share what I learned. 

Rules are important. And they are everywhere.

A key new feature of XML Schema 1.1 is the ability to express rules. For example, you can express this rule:

    Level 1 managers can sign off on purchase requests 
    that do not exceed $10K.

Rules are all about expressing relationships. Recall from your school days you learned this mathematical relationship:

    2 + 3 = 3 + 2

This relationship uses specific values. You learned that the relationship can be generalized: 

    For any value x and any value y:

        x + y = y + x

You can call this a relationship or a rule. And it always holds true.


Here's another example: 

    A rectangle that is 6 units in length and 
    5 units in breadth has this area:

        30 = 6 * 5

This can be generalized to:

    Area = Length * Breadth

It is important to recognize that this relationship is not "assigning" Area the result of multiplying Length and Breadth, i.e., it isn't doing anything. Rather, it is a statement of the relationship that exists between the Area of a rectangle and its Length and Breadth: 

    If you multiply Length and Breadth the result is 
    the Area of the rectangle.

x, y, Area, Length, and Width are called variables. They are called variables, not because their values vary, but because they are symbols that denote any value.


One more example: 

   The sequence (3, 2) is the reverse of this sequence (2, 3).  
   We can express the relationship like this:

       (3, 2) = reverse((2, 3))


In all three examples the expressions are not doing anything; rather, they are stating relationships/rules. 

Imagine writing a program which doesn't do anything; instead, it is simply a collection of relationships/rules.

There are several reasons for doing this:

Your program can be executed in parallel or in any order. For example, consider the following program which consists of two statements:

-----------------------------------------------
Variables:
      Let s1 denote the sequence (2, 3).
      Let s2 denote a sequence.
      Let Length denote the value 6.
      Let Breadth denote the value 5.
      Let Area denote an area of a rectangle.

Program:
        1. Area = Length * Breadth
        2. s2 = reverse(s1)

Output:
        The area is: Area
        The reverse of the sequence is: s2
-----------------------------------------------

Clearly the two program statements can be executed in any order or even in parallel.

Furthermore, suppose the program outputs this XML document:

<Document>
      <Rectangle>
            <Length>6</Length>
            <Breadth>5</Breadth>
            <Area>30</Area>
      </Rectangle>
      <Sequence>
            <Original>
                  <First>2</First>
                  <Second>3</Second>
            </Original>
            <Reversed>
                  <First>3</First>
                  <Second>2</Second>
            </Reversed>
      </Sequence>
</Document>

Then we can use XSD 1.1 assertions to validate the program's output (and thereby implicitly validate the program):

<assertion test="Area = Length * Breadth" />
<assertion test="(Reversed/First, Reversed/Second) = reverse((Original/First, Original/Second))" />


We've seen two benefits to writing programs as a collection of relationships/rules:

First, your program statements can be executed in any order or even in parallel. This means that your program doesn't have to run on a von Neumann machine.

Second, using XSD 1.1 assertions you can (implicitly) validate your program.

Wow!  Wow!

And there's a third benefit: the program statements can be incrementally updated. In the above program, suppose the rectangle is stretched, thus resulting in a new Length and Breadth, that's okay because it simply results in updating this relationship:

    Area = Length * Breadth

The other relationship is not impacted.

Incremental updates, processing in any order or even in parallel, and program validation ... awesome!

What I've just described is XSLT (and XSD 1.1 for validation).

XSLT and XSD 1.1 rocks!

/Roger

[1] XSLT 2.0 and XPath 2.0 by Michael Kay, p. 986 - 987.

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Julian Reschke wrote:
> Hi,
>
> what's the preferred technical term (and a precise reference) for the 
> thing that's frequently called an "XML fragment" (*)?
>
> In the XML spec, <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-content> seems to 
> be the right production, but "content" does not work well as term used 
> outside the XML spec's context...
>
> Feedback appreciated, Julian 
There are a lot of different possibilities, especially depending on what 
kind of information you are dealing with (text, markup, infoset, 
trees):  element, range, fragment, branch, entity.

It may be that the term you are looking for is "section".  XML has one 
kind of marked section in elements, the CDATA marked section, but SGML 
has others not necessarily synchronous with element structure.  If we 
can speak of a marked section, I don't see why we cannot speak of 
unmarked sections too.

Perhaps  "range" would be better kept for regions defined over the 
infoset (range is defined in XPointer, to its failure), while "section" 
would be better for regions defined over the markup or raw text.

Cheers
Rick Jelliffe

Hi Roger,
    It seems to me, that an XML document can never be (they usually
don't) considered a true OO *program* (the way you have described, the
book catalogue), observing the characteristics of XML based languages
we have today (like say, XSLT which is not an object oriented
language, but is a functional language). Though, an XML document (as
you've described with the books example) can be considered a runtime
OO state graph (i.e, objects having state at runtime).

But interestingly, the runtime state of objects which is described as
XML instance (in this case, it's the books XML example, you've given)
doesn't have a corresponding OO *program*
(which, if was executed could have produced the book XML instance
document). The book XML instance which you shared, could have a
corresponding Schema for example (e.g, an XSD description). But the
XSD description for me, is not a OO program. XSD to me looks like, a
set of validation constraints for XML documents (for XML elements, and
attributes) using the notion of types. But the XSD types in XSD
documents, do not make a OO program (Because an OO program has a
description of, program state and methods. OO languages incidentally
use the notion of types or classes. But OO types need to specify the
data and methods).

I guess, OO languages can be designed using an XML vocabulary (I can
imagine, that something like java's syntax can be mimiced as a XML
description. But that won't be java, because java has a well-defined
defined syntax :). Though something like this, if it can exist, can be
considered an XML port of java syntax, for example).

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Costello, Roger L. <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Excellent discussion!
>
> I'd like to try the following approach to exploring this subject. Below is an XML document in an Object Oriented (OO) form. Following it is an XML document in a relational database (DB) form.
>
> The OO form frames ones thoughts in this way:
>
>   Book stores contain a collection of Book objects
>   and Magazine objects. The Book and Magazine types
>   inherit from an abstract Publication type.
>
> The DB form frames ones thoughts in this way:
>
>   Book stores consist of a table composed of records
>   about Books and a table composed of records about
>   Magazines.
>
> "New methods of construction demand new forms" [1]
>
> Let us stipulate that neither the OO form nor the DB form orients ones thoughts properly, i.e. they frame, color, and categorize ones thoughts in a way that is not harmonious with XML.
>
> We desire an XML document that orients ones thoughts in a way that is harmonious with the construction methods provided by XML. What would such an XML document look like? Would you put forth a design, using the book and magazine data below, that properly orients ones thoughts?
>
> /Roger
>
> [1] "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand, p. 35.
>
>
> ******************************************
>              OO Form
> ******************************************
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> <BookStore xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
>        <Publication xsi:type="Book">
>                <Title>Amusing Ourselves to Death</Title>
>                <Author>Neil Postman</Author>
>                <Date>1985</Date>
>                <ISBN>978-0-14-303653-1</ISBN>
>                <Publisher>Penguin Books Ltd.</Publisher>
>        </Publication>
>        <Publication xsi:type="Magazine">
>                <Title>New Scientist</Title>
>                <Week>September 19 - 25, 2009</Week>
>                <Cost>US$5.95</Cost>
>        </Publication>
>        <Publication xsi:type="Book">
>                <Title>The Fountainhead</Title>
>                <Author>Ayn Rand</Author>
>                <Date>1943</Date>
>                <ISBN>978-0-452-28637-5</ISBN>
>                <Publisher>Penguin Books Ltd.</Publisher>
>        </Publication>
> </BookStore>
>
>
> ******************************************
>              DB Form
> ******************************************
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> <BookStore>
>    <Books>
>        <Book>
>                <Title>Amusing Ourselves to Death</Title>
>                <Author>Neil Postman</Author>
>                <Date>1985</Date>
>                <ISBN>978-0-14-303653-1</ISBN>
>                <Publisher>Penguin Books Ltd.</Publisher>
>        </Book>
>        <Book>
>                <Title>The Fountainhead</Title>
>                <Author>Ayn Rand</Author>
>                <Date>1943</Date>
>                <ISBN>978-0-452-28637-5</ISBN>
>                <Publisher>Penguin Books Ltd.</Publisher>
>        </Book>
>    </Books>
>    <Magazines>
>        <Magazine>
>                <Title>New Scientist</Title>
>                <Week>September 19 - 25, 2009</Week>
>                <Cost>US$5.95</Cost>
>        </Magazine>
>    </Magazines>
> </BookStore>



-- 
Regards,
Mukul Gandhi

David Carlisle wrote:
> external parsed entity?
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#TextEntities
> 
> if you want to allow an encoding decln?

No, that wouldn't be allowed. Essentially: whatever character sequence 
you can stick between <foo> and </foo> and get well-formed XML.

> Or you could reference this but it's in a permanent (I assume) CR state
> 
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-fragment#defn-fragment

Yes, that proposal was made as well; but it appears a big heavyweight 
for something that really should be simple to define...

Thanks, Julian

Hi,

what's the preferred technical term (and a precise reference) for the 
thing that's frequently called an "XML fragment" (*)?

In the XML spec, <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-content> seems to be 
the right production, but "content" does not work well as term used 
outside the XML spec's context...

Feedback appreciated, Julian

external parsed entity?

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#TextEntities

if you want to allow an encoding decln?

Or you could reference this but it's in a permanent (I assume) CR state


http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-fragment#defn-fragment

David

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Liam Quin wrote:
> Maybe it'd be worth having some sort of micro-spec for this to go
> with XQuery and XSLT 2 and XPath 2, e.g. via expath.org/exquery.org.

There is an I/O module in Active Tags for that purpose.

If $dir is an object that represents a directory of the file system, 
then one can apply an XPath expression like:
$dir/path/to/doc
$dir/doc[1]
$dir//doc
$dir//*[@io:is-file]
$dir//*[@io:size > 1024]
$dir//*[@io:is-file][@io:extension='xml'][name(..)!='WEB-INF']

What is noticeable is that we don't have in RefleX an XML representation 
of the file system, rather we have objects that behave like XML nodes 
and are traversable/queryable with XPath. This is important for 
performance because we don't have to dump the entire file system.

Remember what asked Roger Costello in a recent post:
	"I oftentimes hear of people creating XML in an Object Oriented
	(OO) form, i.e., as classes and subclasses [...] I wonder if
	such forms are appropriate for XML? Does OO serve the same
	purpose as XML?"

It is a current practice to consider OO on top of XML, I'd rather 
consider XML technologies in the Darwinian sense of computer sciences 
evolution, on top of OOP:
	-Active Tags: everything is XML
	-OOP: everything is object
	-Unix: everything is a file
Having an XML representation of data allows to use powerful tools such 
as XPath/XQuery. Unfortunately most people tend to think about XML 
representation as markups only, whereas it is much more valuable to 
think about XML as its data model: markups are intolerant, the data 
model more flexible.

In Active Tags, the file system is not represented with XML markup, but 
it is an object exposed as XML; if you had to represent in pure XML 
markup a file system, and that you had to get (with XPath or XQuery) the 
modification date of the last file (i