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Re: provocations and realities (was Re: Fwd: Notusin

• From: Fraser Goffin <goffinf@gmail.com>
• To: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
• Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 19:24:38 +0100

>I am not entirely surprised that people who've spent their working lives
> with schemas and similar tools have a hard time seeing the costs.

Well that doesn't apply to me. By and large I use XML schema fairly
infrequently and am no greate supporter of its over complexity and
lack of expressiveness. That said, when it fits the problem space I'm
not frightened of picking it up.

I seems like the problem you're having is understanding that there are
plenty of us who use all kinds of techniques and approaches but not at
the extremes.

I am reminded about some of the design and development principles that
we often like to apply to software engineering problems. As we all
come to realise its not that all of these need to be 'turned up to the
max', it not even the case that they are all 'complementary', it is in
understanding that we need to balance the oftentimes conflicting aims
to find solution that finds emphasis in our specific problem space.

I always sigh in dismay when arguments are presented in these very 'on
or off' terms, and whilst illiciting response by being confrontational
can be incredibly useful, it is also just the precursor towards
understanding the picture from other perspectives that may be
irrelevant in our current domain, but not in everyone else's.

Fraser.


On 08/04/2013, Simon St.Laurent <simonstl@simonstl.com> wrote:
> On 4/8/13 11:11 AM, Fraser Goffin forwarded:
>>     Simon is being argumentative and provocative in order to elicit
>>     responses, and, whilst there's a grain of truth in what he says, it's
>>     far from the whole story. :-)
>
> Liam, you know me.  If I wanted to be provocative, I'd be saying
> something like "If this [RDF-tastic pile] is an improvement to XML, then
> I am a dandelion."
>
> While yes, these claims are provocative, and I don't claim to be
> all-knowing, I am very definitely claiming that schema-centric design is
> harmful because the costs vastly outweigh the benefits, not merely to
> stir entertaining conversation.
>
> I do have other things to do.
>
> I am not entirely surprised that people who've spent their working lives
> with schemas and similar tools have a hard time seeing the costs.  It's
> not a matter of delusion or of evil - it's a matter of what we have
> trained ourselves to see.  That training is extremely difficult to set
> aside.
>
> At least I'm getting a gentler reaction than Walter Perry used to get,
> though it may just be that I'm offering a milder line.
>
> (For those who have forgotten Walter's talks or arrived after he had
> moved on, http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/05/29/perry.html is a good place
> to start.  For those who want deeper background on what is driving me to
> write these things now, see <http://www.amazon.com/dp/0199898073/> or
> <http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195032233/>.)
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Simon St.Laurent
> http://simonstl.com/
>
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• Follow-Ups:
  • Re: provocations and realities (was Re: Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML)
    • From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>

• References:
  • Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML
    • From: "Timothy W. Cook" <timothywayne.cook@gmail.com>
  • Re: Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML
    • From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
  • Re: Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML
    • From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
  • Re: Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML
    • From: Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org>
  • Re: Fwd: Not using mixed content? Then don't use XML
    • From: Fraser Goffin <goffinf@gmail.com>
  • provocations and realities (was Re: Fwd: Not using mixedcontent? Then don't use XML)
    • From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>