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[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] Re: Defining an XML vocabulary: specify syntax, semanti cs, an
 Perhaps other complementary vocabularies that are closer to process modelling are required, including maybe BPEL anf other workflow languages that provide a target for the data instance ? Fraser. On 11/04/2008, Len <cbullard@h...> wrote: > It's a reality statement, Noah. You are taking the position that the > abstraction which *enables* processor independence is more important than > the specification of the processor that can process the abstract data. > > That's wrong for building practical systems. Independence is right, but you > are dismissing the question out of hand. Data designers shouldn't dismiss > questions better asked of process designers. > > OOP? Sometimes we handle data as data rows, too. Why would my customer > want rows that they can't display, edit, delete, add, spell check, search, > truncate, attach, detach.... and so on. > > Data independence enables multiple semantics. Multiple semantics do not > disable data abstraction. They do have the effect of tensors over the > values and the stability of the information. They hold them within > predictions. > > Objects are a kind of implementation or producer. I may not care that the > format they consume is abstract, I do care what roles they perform when > doing that. > > Interface specs act as a limiter/selector over the set of valid datasets. > Roles organize interfaces. Roles define behavioral graphs. That is one > model for organizing permissions for operations over data. If not roles, > event-compatible graphs can. (See X3D for a model). You can combine those. > > D'oh. > > So what I am suggesting is Roger rephrase his question not in terms of the > XML abstraction, but the handlers as networked services. > > Which means, probably, the answer is SOAP or whatever REST definition works, > but the answer is not found exclusively in the XML without adding another > specification. > > len > > -----Original Message----- > From: noah_mendelsohn@u... [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@u...] > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:00 PM > To: Len Bullard > Cc: Costello, Roger L.; Fraser Goffin; xml-dev@l... > Subject: RE: Defining an XML vocabulary: specify syntax, semanti > cs, and BEHAVIOR? > > Len Bullard wrote: > > > The question might be better phrased by specifying the actor that is > > instructed. No format without a format handler. > > Well, that seems to be the opposite of the position I was taking. When I > set my resume down in an XML document, I don't have some particular actor > in mind. Sometimes the "actor" will be a "hire me" application. Sometimes > the same resume can go into a repository of resumes of those who work for > my current employer. Sometime it might be used as input to a search > application. Similarly, an XML document giving the inventory of some > warehouse can be input to a reporting application, an order planning > application, etc. In many, though certainly not in all cases, the power > of XML is that there can indeed be formats without format handlers. "No > format without a format handler" is pretty close to the object-oriented > approach; there are things for which OO is very good, but XML can be good > for other things too. > > Noah > > -------------------------------------- > Noah Mendelsohn > IBM Corporation > One Rogers Street > Cambridge, MA 02142 > 1-617-693-4036 > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > Len Bullard <len.bullard@u...> > 04/10/2008 12:06 PM > > To: noah_mendelsohn@u..., Fraser Goffin > <goffinf@g...> > cc: "Costello, Roger L." <costello@m...>, > xml-dev@l... > Subject: RE: Defining an XML vocabulary: specify > syntax, semanti cs, and BEHAVIOR? > > > Not much time for this: > > The question might be better phrased by specifying the actor that is > instructed. No format without a format handler. > > XML doesn't care what you intend to do with information. > > So is the question: what is the optimum way to specify processor behavior > for some given XML and some given processor? > > len > > > From: noah_mendelsohn@u... [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@u...] > > I think the question ultimately proves to be circular. There are many > uses of XML: for some of those uses, the whole point is to encode > behavior, and for some uses it's just to encode information. The most > obvious example of the former would be an XML serialization of some > imperative set of instructions: go to the store, buy some yogurt, go > home, eat it. For such uses, of course it makes sense to define > "behavioral information". In other cases, XML is used to encode just > information or data. For example: "Noah's phone number is 555-1234". I > claim there need not in general be any preferred behavior associated with > receiving or encountering an XML document encoding this information. > Should you dial my phone number every time you open the XML file? Should > you add it to your address book again? If the answer is yes, then your > goal was not to encode my phone number, it was to encode an instruction > for doing something with my phone number. So, it depends what you're > trying to do. > > I will say that one of the most important aspects of XML, as opposed to > say OO programming, is that it covers both of these cases reasonably > directly (though XML can be a pretty clumsy way to encode detailed logic > or instructions). To just say "Noah's phone number is 555-1234" in Java > really isn't straightforward, though there certainly are Java idioms > (getPhoneNumber(), setPhoneNumber)) that approximate it. Having data that > > can be reused in many different ways is very important. > > Noah > > -------------------------------------- > Noah Mendelsohn > IBM Corporation > One Rogers Street > Cambridge, MA 02142 > 1-617-693-4036 > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > "Fraser Goffin" <goffinf@g...> > 04/10/2008 04:23 AM > > To: "Costello, Roger L." <costello@m...>, > xml-dev@l... > cc: (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM) > Subject: Re: Defining an XML vocabulary: specify > syntax, semantics, and BEHAVIOR? > > > To some extent the behavioural and semantic coupling are perhaps the > most useful parts of the vocabulary insofar as interop is concerned. > How do suggest that this information is conveyed beyond the basic > syntactical convention (i.e. an XML instance element called 'Book' in > the namespace 'urn:TreatThisAsALiteraryTextType' MUST have a specific > meaning and MUST be processed in a specific way). > > For most custom vocabularies (I mean one that I might create between a > trading partner and myself) today this level of specification is > typically conveyed 'out of band' right, that is, there is nothing > beyond the naming convention to express it ? > > Does the semantic web have anything to offer ? > > Fraser. > > On 09/04/2008, bryan rasmussen <rasmussen.bryan@g...> wrote: > > > QUESTIONS > > > > > > 1. When defining an XML vocabulary, should behavioral information > > > always be specified? > > no. > > > > > > 2. Does it make sense to define an XML vocabulary without specifying > > > behavioral information? > > yes > > > 3. Are there two categories of XML vocabularies: > > > > > > (a) XML vocabularies with behavioral instructions > > > (b) XML vocabularies without behavioral instructions > > > > > yes. Although I think vocabularies without behavioral instructions are > > vocabularies that would normally be understood as purely data > > specifying in nature. > > > > > As shown above, XSLT, XML Schema, and XHTML are XML vocabularies that > > > fall in the first category. > > > > > > Consider a "Book XML vocabulary." Here's a sample document that > > > illustrates the Book XML vocabulary: > > > > > > <?xml version="1.0"?> > > > <Book> > > > <Title>The Wisdom of Crowds</Title> > > > <Author>James Surowiecki</Author> > > > <Date>2005</Date> > > > <ISBN>0-385-72170-6</ISBN> > > > <Publisher>Anchor Books</Publisher> > > > </Book> > > > > > > Suppose I write a specification for this XML vocabulary. For each > > > element I specify its contents and the intended usage. But suppose > > > that I don't instruct application developers on the (default and/or > > > mandatory) behavior of each element. How will I certify that the > > > application is compliant? > > > > > > Because the general purpose of a Book vocabulary in all the examples > > I've seen is in the holding of book specific data. There are of course > > real world Book specifying vocabularies that are concerned with how a > > 'book' must behave, the behavior being specific to a particular type > > of media. > > > > Cheers, > > Bryan Rasmussen > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. > If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This > message contains confidential information and is intended only for the > individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. 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