Re: XML in the alleged Real World (was Re: Does XML-
>XSLT is good for simple things, hard for hard things, and > the tools don't help with the hard stuff. Yep, and this was a reason touted by Microsoft for not building some of the ASP.NET stuff on XSLT. I (personally) don't think XSLT is all that hard, i just find that sometimes there are limits around what you can reasonable do with it (client state being an example i had hassles with). Forget passing 50 parameters to preserve state. There are generally always way around it, but then it effects performance coz it's all done on the server. If we could say that the two main browsers supported the XSLT standard, everything would be an awfully lot easier. In any case, i think you need XML+XSLT+Glue in any reasonable sized application - but then i never expected XSLT to be all things anyway. I guess i mean "ServerXSLT" - something combining the environment with XSLT itself. The inverse of server controls in .NET, where XSLT is the focus containing business server logic rather than the other way round (which is really what controls in ASP.NET give us). cheers, Steven http://deltabis.com/steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Champion" <mc@x...> To: <xml-dev@l...> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: XML in the alleged Real World (was Re: Does XML-Dev matter?) > 3/24/2002 3:48:24 AM, AndrewWatt2000@a... wrote: > > > > > > Seriously, what was indicated as being overwhelming about XSLT? If the > > alleged real world doesn't get XSLT what hope is there for comprehension of > > the more complete XML Jigsaw / XML Spaghetti (choose your term according to > > taste)? > > > > > > And just for completeness what were the characteristics of the "real world" > > which you mention? > > The slice of the "real world" I visited was in Europe, and the people I referred > to were people with long experience in IT who had used XML (and simple > XSLT apps) for a year or two, but "hit the wall" trying to implement actual > customer requirements for Web applications using XSLT. I'm not talking > about a big sample of people, I'm talking about a sense I got from a few > conversations: XSLT is good for simple things, hard for hard things, and > the tools don't help with the hard stuff. > > But the "what hope is there for the whole tangled ball of X-spaghetti if > experienced software developers have trouble applying one of the best and > most widely supported specs" is PRECISELY the point. Tim Bray's presentation > makes us think about how other innovative technologies became accepted > by the mainstream or not. It seems more and more clear that those tools > that help people get their Day Jobs done without making them bet their > careers on learning a new, complex way of working are those that tend to > succeed. I don't spend enough time in the Real World outside XML geekdom > to have strong opinions on where the 80/20 point in XML (broadly defined) > really is, but I think that's exactly the question we should be asking > ourselves, one another, and our customers. > > I mentioned this all in response to a question "Does XML-DEV Matter?" -- I > say it *does* matter because questions like this have been asked and > wrestled with here for years, even if the answers are not yet obvious. > Maybe it's value is like that of a sailor's bar > in the 15th century - if you don't have a good map to guide you, the > gossip -- about who headed where, who came back, and who didn't -- > is a WHOLE lot better than nothing. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > The xml-dev list is sponsored by XML.org <http://www.xml.org>, an > initiative of OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> > > The list archives are at http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription > manager: <http://lists.xml.org/ob/adm.pl> >
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