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In that case why not say that the code I write is in Connextra format, (as an ... I want to ... so that ...) and I hand this on to a developer who converts it into (whatever paradigm he/she likes) which gets converted into something procedural. I think it is all like the Church/Turing debate - it is all equivalent but comes down to culture. ---- Stephen D Green On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 22:20, Michael Kay <mike@s...> wrote: > > Well yes, the code we write generally ends up being executed on a von Neumann machine, and von Neumann machines are procedural, but that's not really the point. We're talking about the code we write, not the machinery for executing it. > > Michael Kay > Saxonica > > > On 23 Jun 2022, at 22:09, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@g...> wrote: > > > > The SQL is declarative, and non-procedural, but isn't the execution > > plan into which the SQL is converted, procedural? Isn't all > > declarative, 'non-procedural' code usually actually turned into > > something procedural behind the scenes? Isn't declarative, > > 'non-procedural' code actually an illusion, wrapping procedural code > > under the hood - smoke and mirrors? I might use a lambda LINQ > > expression to handle SQL databases or XML and think these are > > declarative or functional expressions which get computed, yet I'd be > > surprised if it doesn't actually get turned into a lot of procedural > > code that gets executed. > > ---- > > Stephen D Green > > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 12:16, Michael Kay <mike@s...> wrote: > >> > >> The domain he's referring to is not XML, but what he calls "scanning" (probably meaning here lexical analysis). > >> > >> I actually think he's wrong. Nonprocedural programming is most successful in domains such as database query (SQL) where there's a vast range of implementation decisions to be made (query execution plans), and choosing the right one is best done by a machine rather than a human. > >> > >> Michael Kay > >> Saxonica > >> > >>> On 23 Jun 2022, at 11:45, Roger L Costello <costello@m...> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Folks, > >>> > >>> A book [1] that I am reading says something interesting about declarative languages (such as XML): > >>> > >>> Programming a scanner generator is an example of nonprocedural programming [i.e., declarative programming]. That is, unlike ordinary programming, which we call procedural, we do not tell a scanner generator "how" to scan but simply "what" we want scanned. This is a higher-level approach and in many ways a more natural one. ... Nonprocedural programming is most successful in limited domains, such as scanning, where the range of implementation decisions that must be automatically made is limited. > >>> > >>> That last sentence is interesting. I wonder how it applies to XML? XML is in a limited domain, right? XML's domain is the data formats domain, right? How is "the range of implementation decisions that must be automatically made" limited in XML? > >>> > >>> /Roger > >>> > >>> [1] "Crafting a Compiler with C" by Fischer and LeBlanc, p. 52 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________________________________ > >>> > >>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > >>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > >>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > >>> > >>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > >>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > >>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > >>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > >>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > >> > >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > >> >
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