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But he will find it.... eventually :-) On 3 May 2016 at 14:09, Steve Newcomb <srn@c...> wrote: > It has been said to me that XML's stripped-down character owes something to > HyTime's willingness to account for everything, including parameter and > general entities. At the Metastructures '99 conference -- one of the > conferences in Balisage's lineage -- TechnoTeacher circulated a full-page > bubble diagram of a GROVE that represented an SGML document with a single > element with a single word in content and a single attribute, using the > full-blown "SGML Property Set" defined in HyTime. The whole 8.5 X 11 page > was covered with bubbles and lines. There was nothing short of outrage on > the conference floor. The complexity of it all! "The humanity!" One > famous person whispered to me, "Too ambitious." Another stood up to say, > "This will never fly." And he turned out to be quite right. > > But to my eye it was beautiful. There was nothing extra, and nothing was > missing, either. It was just the way SGML actually worked, no more and no > less. Much of the complexity was owing to general entities, of which the > document itself was one, as I recall. > > Somewhere I have that diagram. I thought I had put it online, but I can't > find it this morning. > > > On 05/03/2016 07:59 AM, G. Ken Holman wrote: >> >> The same thing happened with Microstar's Near and Far DTD management tool. >> It became essentially uni-directional from DTD to display. No-one could use >> it for production maintenance because the author's entity structure and >> source expression evaporated. >> >> The mistake discovered on day two of the product was the thinking that >> users would want to use the graphical tool for *all* of the DTD maintenance. >> If it had been perceived correctly that users needed to preserve their own >> concept of internal modularization, declaration ordering, commenting, etc., >> the product would have been designed differently from the ground up and >> found a more appropriate role in the augmentation of the >> development/maintenance process and not try to be the be-all and end-all of >> model building. >> >> Peter Flynn's recent legacy project discussion has revealed that more than >> 20 years later the product is still being used for visualization. And I >> think Tommie's coining of the term "DTD scat" still gets used (forgive me if >> it was one of Tommie's colleagues who came up with the term). >> >> . . . . . . Ken >> >> At 2016-05-02 21:09 -0500, Christopher R. Maden wrote: >>> >>> On 05/02/2016 08:56 PM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >>>> >>>> I think one of the limitations of the idea of grammar neutrality (ie >>>> freely translate the schema into the particular grammar available for >>>> each tool) is this lack of entity maintenance by some converters. >>>> (Not a good term) Possibly it is a bigger problem than the different >>>> power of the different grammars. >>> >>> >>> This is what killed EBT. >>> >>> This is second-hand hearsay, through a filter of 20 years, but the >>> DynaBase project had multiple big-ticket pre-orders before someone noticed >>> that, in parsing the SGML, it normalized away all the entity references, >>> which made it useless for actual ongoing document management, which was its >>> primary selling point. >>> >>> Fixing that would have involved changes going down to the deepest layers >>> of the parser... which was just no feasible on the announced schedule. >>> >>> So instead of an IPO making me rich, EBT was sold to Inso (which made a >>> few people rich, entirely deservedly), who proceeded to run everything into >>> the ground. >>> >>> <paul-harvey>Now you know... the rest of the story.</paul-harvey> >>> >>> ~Chris >> >> >> >> -- >> Check our site for free XML, XSLT, XSL-FO and UBL developer resources | >> Streaming hands-on XSLT/XPath 2 training @US$45: http://goo.gl/Dd9qBK | >> Crane Softwrights Ltd. _ _ _ _ _ _ http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ | >> G Ken Holman _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ mailto:gkholman@C... | >> Google+ blog _ _ _ _ _ http://plus.google.com/+GKenHolman-Crane/posts | >> Legal business disclaimers: _ _ http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal | >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. >> >> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... >> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... >> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php -- Dave Pawson XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. Docbook FAQ. http://www.dpawson.co.uk
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