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RE: Re[2]: SQL5

  • From: Len Bullard <len.bullard@u...>
  • To: Jim Melton <jim.melton@a...>, Dmitry Turin <sql4-en@n...>
  • Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:20:56 -0500

RE: Re[2]:  SQL5
For what it's worth, Dmitry, I concur with Jim's assessment of your chances
at standardization and that if you persist in labeling it "SQL", this
misnomer will reduce your market acceptance.

However, there are companies building 'simplification' software over the
base layer systems in frameworks such as ASP.   Perhaps your product will be
better positioned in Rapid Application Development toolkits.   It is not
always the case that these are tools used by 'non-professional' programmers.
They are used by professional shops with harsh delivery schedules that
justify less 'to-the-metal' programming by the superior look, feel, and
reliability of the RAD output even if there is some performance penalty or
simplifying assumptions.   A professional knows that most limitations of
such tools can be coded around where necessary; otherwise, why bother with
object-oriented base classes?

Given the tendency of the cat herds, these toolkits are also a real boon to
the development managers.

len


From: Jim Melton [mailto:jim.melton@a...] 

Dmitry,

You have sent me separate email, which I will try to answer 
today.  But I also want to respond publicly to your public message to 
Jonathan.

After reading the several email messages that you have sent publicly 
and privately on this subject, I think I now understand more about 
your goals and I therefore have a suggestion that I hope is helpful.

I do NOT believe that you are describing a "database language" that 
is at the same level as SQL.  I think that you are confusing many 
people by insisting on calling your language "SQL" 4, 5, 42, or 
whatever.  The letters "SQL" are not copyrighted or trademarked, but 
I think you are doing yourself a great disservice by using those 
letters for your language.  Calling your language "SQL5" could be 
interpreted as saying "the next generation of the SQL language after 
SQL4 (also known as SQL:2003)".  But your language has little to do 
with SQL as it has been standardized.  I urge you to change the name 
so that people don't get confused and dismiss you because of the 
incorrect implication.

What I think you are describing instead is a language in which a 
certain class of "programmers" (not full-time IT programmers) can 
write applications that use XML directly and use an SQL database 
"behind the curtain".  I haven't proven this, but I suspect that your 
language can be compiled into standard SQL.  The key to my 
understanding your language this way lies in your statements that the 
value is "to delete gaskets like php, etc." and "XML (actually HTML) 
for i/o", and so forth.

I submit that you are actually defining a middle-ware language that 
is itself a kind of gasket but that gives a view of the database that 
(in your opinion, at least) is easier for nonprofessional programmers 
to use than SQL is.

I have asked around and talked to a number of database people about 
your language.  The response, 100%, is that nobody to whom I have 
spoken believes that it is interesting to pursue as an extension to 
(much less replacement for) SQL.  I suspect that you have very little 
chance of finding an organization under which you will successfully 
propose your language to be a standard for database languages.

However, if you describe it differently, as a middleware language 
that interfaces with standard SQL databases, then I think you might 
have a better change at finding an appropriate organization.

Hope this helps,
    Jim

P.S., I am astonished at your belief that the "market is 
monopolized".  If you mean "the database market", then I should point 
out to you that there are three Very Large companies competing in 
that space (IBM, Oracle, Microsoft), perhaps a dozen smaller 
companies (e.g., Hitachi, Sybase, Ingres, Mimer), and at least a 
half-dozen open source projects (e.g., MySQL, PostGresQL), all 
competing with one another.  Can you justify calling a market with 
three Very Large companies (competing bitterly with each other) and 
an additional 15 to 20 products (competing in various niches of the 
market) as "monopolized"?  That doesn't fit my definition of a monopoly!


At 10/4/2007 03:02 AM, Dmitry Turin wrote:
>Jonathan,
>
>JR> goal is to have compatibility or interoperability within some market
>To my mind, market is monopolized and mythologized,
>it has very less common with needs of people.
>
>JR> - Why can people work together better if they use the technology you
>JR> define?
>   It must be admitted, this is diversion against programmers.
>Purpose is to delete gaskets like php, etc.
>Then directly communication between user agent (email client, browser,
>ftp-client - any agent in general before choice of protocol) and DBMS
>will be possible, and applied specialists will capable to automate
>their activity (SQL is accessable for them) without IT-specialists.
>Since proprietary UA (SqlPlus.exe, PgSql.exe, iSql.exe) and common UA
>(listed above) behave identically.
>   As you see, XML (actually HTML) for i/o, processing of tree are
>secondary and infered from choice of HTTP and of finding tendency to solve
>interoperability problem among heterogeneous UA by XML.
>
>JR> - What part of that should be implemented by a number of products that
>JR> do not use any of your technology or software at all?
>(1) lay-ing XML into tables, using FK [1].
>(2) extraction records into XML, using FK and determination.
>(3) sending/receiving via HTTP
>(4) saving of accepted file (picture [2]) in any place
>     (at least in filesystem) and to save HTML-link (value of @src)
>     for file in record's field
>(5) sending of file upon HTTP-request according to @src
>(6) mixing of DML and 'a.b.c.d >>' in one procedure/trigger.
>(7) construction 'order by ... start by ... limit ...' to send next portion
>
>[1] applied specialists must thought-out scheme to avoid several FK
>from one table into other. This restriction may be overcame
>by plug-in for browser, which will send 'determination'
>http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/forsql40_eng.htm
>http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/determination_eng.htm
>[2] content of file is invisible now in browser.
>To overcome this without programming (heavy for users),
>it's possible to install plug-in into browser
>http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/inputpic_eng.htm
>
>P.S. Following real life, processing of tree in database is desirably,
>but not necessary. Removal of gasket is the main.
>
>JR>  Who else will
>JR> produce an implementation of the part you propose to standardize?
>Some additional comfort:
>request, distributed on several database (nearly necessary);
>rights for each record.
>
>P.S. I have much doubts about creating index for 'rought equality of
>strings', and thus about 'rought equality' itself.
>
>JR> - Who are the people who recognize their need to cooperate using a
>JR> technology like yours, instead of existing standards or proprietary
>JR> approaches, and will help you to get this accepted as a standard?
>(1) Applied specialist (phisicists, biologists, etc),
>who by itself (independently) must develop informational system
>(1.1) heavy to explain for programmers
>(1.2) have no time
>(1.3) have no money
>(2) Workman in small business
>(3) Teacher in university
>
>JR> Good answers to these questions will help you know where to go with the
>JR> proposed standard to make it happen.
>How you estimate my answers ?
>Is it right, realistic ?
>What i forgot ?
>
>
>Dmitry Turin
>SQL5      (5.4.0)  http://sql50.euro.ru
>HTML6     (6.4.2)  http://html60.euro.ru
>Unicode7  (7.2.0)  http://unicode7.by.ru
>Computer2 (2.0.2)  http://computer20.euro.ru
>
>
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========================================================================
Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL)     Phone: +1.801.942.0144
   Co-Chair, W3C XML Query WG; F&O (etc.) editor    Fax : +1.801.942.3345
Oracle Corporation        Oracle Email: jim dot melton at oracle dot com
1930 Viscounti Drive      Standards email: jim dot melton at acm dot org
Sandy, UT 84093-1063 USA          Personal email: jim at melton dot name
========================================================================
=  Facts are facts.   But any opinions expressed are the opinions      =
=  only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody   =
=  else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand.  =
======================================================================== 


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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: SQL5
      • From: Jonathan Robie <jonathan.robie@r...>

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