RE: Re: SQL5
For what it's worth, Dmitry, I concur with Jim's assessment of your chances at standardization and that if you persist in labeling it "SQL", this misnomer will reduce your market acceptance. However, there are companies building 'simplification' software over the base layer systems in frameworks such as ASP. Perhaps your product will be better positioned in Rapid Application Development toolkits. It is not always the case that these are tools used by 'non-professional' programmers. They are used by professional shops with harsh delivery schedules that justify less 'to-the-metal' programming by the superior look, feel, and reliability of the RAD output even if there is some performance penalty or simplifying assumptions. A professional knows that most limitations of such tools can be coded around where necessary; otherwise, why bother with object-oriented base classes? Given the tendency of the cat herds, these toolkits are also a real boon to the development managers. len From: Jim Melton [mailto:jim.melton@a...] Dmitry, You have sent me separate email, which I will try to answer today. But I also want to respond publicly to your public message to Jonathan. After reading the several email messages that you have sent publicly and privately on this subject, I think I now understand more about your goals and I therefore have a suggestion that I hope is helpful. I do NOT believe that you are describing a "database language" that is at the same level as SQL. I think that you are confusing many people by insisting on calling your language "SQL" 4, 5, 42, or whatever. The letters "SQL" are not copyrighted or trademarked, but I think you are doing yourself a great disservice by using those letters for your language. Calling your language "SQL5" could be interpreted as saying "the next generation of the SQL language after SQL4 (also known as SQL:2003)". But your language has little to do with SQL as it has been standardized. I urge you to change the name so that people don't get confused and dismiss you because of the incorrect implication. What I think you are describing instead is a language in which a certain class of "programmers" (not full-time IT programmers) can write applications that use XML directly and use an SQL database "behind the curtain". I haven't proven this, but I suspect that your language can be compiled into standard SQL. The key to my understanding your language this way lies in your statements that the value is "to delete gaskets like php, etc." and "XML (actually HTML) for i/o", and so forth. I submit that you are actually defining a middle-ware language that is itself a kind of gasket but that gives a view of the database that (in your opinion, at least) is easier for nonprofessional programmers to use than SQL is. I have asked around and talked to a number of database people about your language. The response, 100%, is that nobody to whom I have spoken believes that it is interesting to pursue as an extension to (much less replacement for) SQL. I suspect that you have very little chance of finding an organization under which you will successfully propose your language to be a standard for database languages. However, if you describe it differently, as a middleware language that interfaces with standard SQL databases, then I think you might have a better change at finding an appropriate organization. Hope this helps, Jim P.S., I am astonished at your belief that the "market is monopolized". If you mean "the database market", then I should point out to you that there are three Very Large companies competing in that space (IBM, Oracle, Microsoft), perhaps a dozen smaller companies (e.g., Hitachi, Sybase, Ingres, Mimer), and at least a half-dozen open source projects (e.g., MySQL, PostGresQL), all competing with one another. Can you justify calling a market with three Very Large companies (competing bitterly with each other) and an additional 15 to 20 products (competing in various niches of the market) as "monopolized"? That doesn't fit my definition of a monopoly! At 10/4/2007 03:02 AM, Dmitry Turin wrote: >Jonathan, > >JR> goal is to have compatibility or interoperability within some market >To my mind, market is monopolized and mythologized, >it has very less common with needs of people. > >JR> - Why can people work together better if they use the technology you >JR> define? > It must be admitted, this is diversion against programmers. >Purpose is to delete gaskets like php, etc. >Then directly communication between user agent (email client, browser, >ftp-client - any agent in general before choice of protocol) and DBMS >will be possible, and applied specialists will capable to automate >their activity (SQL is accessable for them) without IT-specialists. >Since proprietary UA (SqlPlus.exe, PgSql.exe, iSql.exe) and common UA >(listed above) behave identically. > As you see, XML (actually HTML) for i/o, processing of tree are >secondary and infered from choice of HTTP and of finding tendency to solve >interoperability problem among heterogeneous UA by XML. > >JR> - What part of that should be implemented by a number of products that >JR> do not use any of your technology or software at all? >(1) lay-ing XML into tables, using FK . >(2) extraction records into XML, using FK and determination. >(3) sending/receiving via HTTP >(4) saving of accepted file (picture ) in any place > (at least in filesystem) and to save HTML-link (value of @src) > for file in record's field >(5) sending of file upon HTTP-request according to @src >(6) mixing of DML and 'a.b.c.d >>' in one procedure/trigger. >(7) construction 'order by ... start by ... limit ...' to send next portion > > applied specialists must thought-out scheme to avoid several FK >from one table into other. This restriction may be overcame >by plug-in for browser, which will send 'determination' >http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/forsql40_eng.htm >http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/determination_eng.htm > content of file is invisible now in browser. >To overcome this without programming (heavy for users), >it's possible to install plug-in into browser >http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/inputpic_eng.htm > >P.S. Following real life, processing of tree in database is desirably, >but not necessary. Removal of gasket is the main. > >JR> Who else will >JR> produce an implementation of the part you propose to standardize? >Some additional comfort: >request, distributed on several database (nearly necessary); >rights for each record. > >P.S. I have much doubts about creating index for 'rought equality of >strings', and thus about 'rought equality' itself. > >JR> - Who are the people who recognize their need to cooperate using a >JR> technology like yours, instead of existing standards or proprietary >JR> approaches, and will help you to get this accepted as a standard? >(1) Applied specialist (phisicists, biologists, etc), >who by itself (independently) must develop informational system >(1.1) heavy to explain for programmers >(1.2) have no time >(1.3) have no money >(2) Workman in small business >(3) Teacher in university > >JR> Good answers to these questions will help you know where to go with the >JR> proposed standard to make it happen. >How you estimate my answers ? >Is it right, realistic ? >What i forgot ? > > >Dmitry Turin >SQL5 (5.4.0) http://sql50.euro.ru >HTML6 (6.4.2) http://html60.euro.ru >Unicode7 (7.2.0) http://unicode7.by.ru >Computer2 (2.0.2) http://computer20.euro.ru > > >_______________________________________________________________________ > >XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS >to support XML implementation and development. To minimize >spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > >[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ >Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... >subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... >List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ >List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php ======================================================================== Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL) Phone: +1.801.942.0144 Co-Chair, W3C XML Query WG; F&O (etc.) editor Fax : +1.801.942.3345 Oracle Corporation Oracle Email: jim dot melton at oracle dot com 1930 Viscounti Drive Standards email: jim dot melton at acm dot org Sandy, UT 84093-1063 USA Personal email: jim at melton dot name ======================================================================== = Facts are facts. But any opinions expressed are the opinions = = only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody = = else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand. = ======================================================================== _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@l... subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@l... List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. 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