Fwd: Java NVDL implementation
Damm and blast, forgot to copy to xml-dev. Also, should we be using jnvdl-help@l... (or at least copying to) for this debate ? Fraser. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Fraser Goffin <goffinf@g...> Date: 07-May-2006 22:06 Subject: Re: Java NVDL implementation To: "G. Ken Holman" <gkholman@c...> >.... I'm looking only for a non-zero return code on any failure >of validation of any bit, and a zero return code on successful >validation of all bits. Don't you want to know what the validation errors actually were ? When we receive documents and validate them, if they fail we usually send back a response to the caller (and to our logs) describing what was wrong (e.g. SOAP Fault details) ? Fraser. On 07/05/06, G. Ken Holman <gkholman@c...> wrote: > At 2006-05-07 17:33 +0200, bryan rasmussen wrote: > >On 5/7/06, Jirka Kosek <jirka@k...> wrote: > >>My understanding of NVDL is that its main purpose is validation and > >>JNVDL thus implements standard Java API for invoking validation. So when > >>your document is valid, there is no return. If there are some errors (be > >>it validation problem on NVDL level, or validation errors against > >>particular schema referenced from NVDL) you get these errors (as > >>exceptions, or you can register your own ErrorHandler to handle them on > >>your own). > >>... > > > >My understanding of NVDL is in agreement with yours. > > And mine. I'm looking only for a non-zero return code on any failure > of validation of any bit, and a zero return code on successful > validation of all bits. > > >But I think most > >developers would want the validation process to lead to an output of > >the seperated xml, > > I disagree ... that is not something that I anticipated would need to > happen in a development environment ... I'd be using XSLT and my > match patterns would effectively dispatch the input stream to the > various handlers. > > I do agree it is something needed for a training environment, and I'm > planning to address that for my NVDL training with some custom code. > > >this could be used, for example, as the first step > >in a pipeline so that: > > > >NVDLValid -> handleValidSeperatedXML > > > >NVDLInvalid -> handleNonValidSeperatedXML > > > >otherwise I think, that for most applications likely to be > >encountered, the NVDL validation is useless because after NVDL > >validation they will have to (or want to [not the same thing, but most > >people act as if it were]) do the same thing they would have to do > >without NVDL validation, namely seperate out the namespaces. > > But I would have anticipated that separating out the namespaces would > not be helpful because it would lose context. Certainly in my XSLT > stylesheet acting on an instance of multiple namespaces I would > absolutely need to know context and act on a particular subtree based > on the parent of the apex. And, as well, even if there was no > relationship to the parent, in XSLT the entire tree would be > available to my calculations and transform as I acted on the presence > of multiple namespaces. > > >And if they seperate out the namespaces correctly than it is not a big > >thing to validate the seperated XML, if they seperate them incorrectly > >(really, there are developers I would not trust to do this) well then > >it would be nice if their validation took place after seperation. > > Fine, but then it is just an exercise in XSLT or Python/SAX to create > individual instances out of context and pass each one through > validation and act on them. > > >At any rate if the developer has to seperate the namespaces themselves > >I am sure they are going to want to validate the document after > >seperation. > > Fine, but then I don't think NVDL is the tool they need ... NVDL will > validate the use of namespaces *in the context* of the document > without disturbing that context and making the entire document > available for processing as a whole. > > Remember that XSLT acts on XPath addresses without validation ... so > if a stylesheet knows that a document is valid, it can skip its own > validation and just act on the information items ... and if a > document is not considered valid structurally before being sent to > XSLT then there is no assurance the XSLT will work properly. > > >And if they are doing that, why not do just that and skip NVDL? > > If they don't need the separate namespaces in context, then I totally > agree: skip NVDL as it doesn't apply. > > >The use case for NVDL without some way to hook into the seperated > >streams will seem very small to the average developer, I think. > > I disagree. I think the developer will more than likely be working > on the whole rather than on the separate bits, otherwise they would > have to invent their own ways of maintaining context on the separate > bits to make the processing of them meaningful. > > Whereas they can act on the whole in a single process with the > NVDL-based assurance that the whole mixture of namespaces is as > expected according to the NVDL script. > > I hope this helps. > > . . . . . . . . . . Ken > > > -- > Registration open for XSLT/XSL-FO training: Wash.,DC 2006-06-12/16 > Also for XSLT/XSL-FO training: Minneapolis, MN 2006-07-31/08-04 > Also for XML/XSLT/XSL-FO training:Birmingham,England 2006-05-22/25 > Also for XSLT/XSL-FO training: Copenhagen,Denmark 2006-05-08/11 > World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training. > G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@C... > Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ > Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995) > Male Cancer Awareness Aug'05 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/bc > Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > The xml-dev list is sponsored by XML.org <http://www.xml.org>, an > initiative of OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> > > The list archives are at http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription > manager: <http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/index.php> > >
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