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Re: Non-infoset

• To: amyzing@t...
• Subject: Re: Non-infoset
• From: Alessandro Triglia <sandro@m...>
• Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:38:51 +0200 (CEST)
• Cc: xml-dev@l...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amelia A Lewis [mailto:amyzing@t...] 
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 16:07
> To: xml-dev@l...
> Subject: Re:  Non-infoset
> 
> 
> On 2005-04-10 15:25:51 -0400 Alessandro Triglia <sandro@m...> 
> wrote:
> > The non-infoset includes such things as:
> > 
> > - the use of general entities;
> 
> Quite significant, given that there's no replacement for this 
> (particularly inside attribute content).
> 
> > - the nature and amount of whitespace inside tags;
> 
> What?



[40] STag	   ::=   	'<' Name (S Attribute)* S? '>'

[42] ETag	   ::=   	'</' Name S? '>'

[44] EmptyElemTag	   ::=   	'<' Name (S Attribute)* S? '/>'

[3] S ::=   	(#x20 | #x9 | #xD | #xA)+


"nature and amount of whitespace inside tags" means:  What do you choose as "S" in productions 40, 42, and 44?  (two spaces?, one tab?, one tab and one space? one CR?, and so on).


> 
> <p>This sentence contains <em>emphasized</em> text.</p>
> 
> Has important characteristics in the whitespace.


I said "inside" tags, not "between" tags.


> 
> Can fast infoset do mixed content?


As well as the XML Infoset can.  Of course, it can.


> 
> > - the inclusion of a DTD;
> 
> Of a piece with the lack of support for entities.
> 
> > .. and other things, including those listed in Appendix D of the 
> > Infoset 
> > recommendation.
> 
> Comments?  Processing instructions?


Comments and processing instructions are part of the XML Infoset.

See http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/#infoitem.pi

and

http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/#infoitem.comment


> 
> > However, I would like to ask the following question.  How many 
> > **producers** 
> > of XML documents really care about the non-infoset part of the XML 
> > document 
> > that they are **producing**?
> 
> Sufficiently many that DTD won't die, since it's the only way to 
> define and use general entities.


I didn't say that DTDs will die.  I didn't say that all producers of XML don't care about the DTD.  I have asked how many do.


> 
> > Or equivalently:  How many **producers** of XML would be happy to 
> > live in a 
> > world in which the non-infoset part was put outside their control? 
> 
> A subset of the ones I know of; all entirely data-oriented.  


So?  If they are *many* enough, then the infoset *is* important.  This is my point.


> Even 
> those tend to be frustrated by the lack of a replacement for the 
> general entity mechanism (although xinclude can solve some of those 
> problems, albeit sometimes with redefinition of schemas).
> 
> > How many producers need the ability 
> > to use general entities?  How many producers need the ability to 
> > include a 
> > DTD in the XML they are creating?
> 
> It continually surprises me how many people think that the entity 
> mechanism can be dispensed with, 


Who said I think that the entity mechanism can be dispensed with?   I have asked how many people don't need it.


> given that there is no replacement 
> for it, and a substantial number of customers (not particular jobs, 
> but customers overall) need it.
> 
> > If the answer to these questions was that not many XML producers 
> > really care 
> > about the non-infoset, one could conclude that the XML 
> infoset **is** 
> > important, more so than some believe, whether or not people 
> actually 
> > use the 
> > term "infoset" in their work.
> 
> And if it's that many *do* care about whitespace, and entities, and 
> DTDs?  Or PIs and comments?


Your mention of whitespace, PIs, and comments is pointless, because these things are in the infoset.

Entities are in the non-infoset.   I have asked how many creators of XML documents need them.  If they are a good number, then the infoset is important.

Alessandro


> 
> Amy!
> -- 
> Amelia A. Lewis                    amyzing {at} talsever.com
> Money can't buy happiness, but poverty can't buy *anything*.
> 
> 
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