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Re: 3 XML Design Principles - a rebuttal

• To: XML Developers List <xml-dev@l...>
• Subject: Re: 3 XML Design Principles - a rebuttal
• From: Rick Marshall <rjm@z...>
• Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:27:45 +1100
• In-reply-to: <e3a5cb2c050130113368ca80b4@m...>
• Organization: Zenucom Pty Ltd
• References: <74B14CBC0FEB9D4EB16969F09FA51F451D3947@M...> <e3a5cb2c050130113368ca80b4@m...>
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Michael Champion wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:54:22 -0500, Chiusano Joseph
><chiusano_joseph@b...> wrote:
>  
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@s...]
>>>Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:26 PM
>>>To: 'Christian Nentwich'
>>>Cc: 'Roger L. Costello'; 'XML Developers List'
>>>Subject: RE:  3 XML Design Principles - a rebuttal
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>The only time they need their data
>>>>normalised is at the end of a message flow, when it goes into a
>>>>database, but certainly not in XML transit.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>> Database design and message design have
>>>quite different requirements and the optimum design for one
>>>is not generally optimum for the other.
>>>      
>>>
>>+1
>>
>>I was trying to make a related point in my earlier post today:
>>    
>>
>
>Let me jump on the bandwagon here.  I think it's dangerous / premature
>to talk about XML-specific design principles, especially independent
>from the application domain.  It would be interesting to pursue Kurt
>Cagle's suggestion that what Roger is talking about is a variant of
>Codd's 12 principles for RDBMS
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules.  Obviously some are
>not at all applicable to XML, but it would be interesting to explore
>which are.  (Note that the conventional wisdom holds that no
>commercially successful RDBMS products adhere to all 12 rules!).
>
>  Maybe there are *document* design principles that are quite
>different from database design principles..  That may be what Roger is
>trying to do, but I would be wary of tying them too closely to XML
>idioms. I also think that Michael Kay and Joe Chiusano may be onto
>something that *message* design principles are another thing as well. 
>I suppose documents should be optimized for update and display by
>humans, and messages should be optimized for efficient creation,
>transmission, and processing by computer systems ???
>
>I guess my bottom line is that XML is essentially about representing
>documents, data, and messages not about a set of constraints for
>designing them. I would recommend that Roger start his effort by
>checking out the state of the art in conceptual modeling, information
>modeling, database design, etc. and seeing what challenges and
>opportunities XML offers (e.g., by being optimized for implicit
>representation of hierarchical relationships, maybe?),
>  
>
and in loose database terms there are three tables involved:

lots, pickers, and pickers in lots. so we would identify the actors 
(lots and pickers) explicitly and the create a third table to relate the 
two.

our xml message structures reflect this. and then i don't need deep 
nesting and id/idref should take care of the details, and it's explicit. :)

rick

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>  
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• References:
  • RE: 3 XML Design Principles - a rebuttal
    • From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@b...>
  • Re: 3 XML Design Principles - a rebuttal
    • From: Michael Champion <michaelc.champion@g...>

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