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Yes. Yuri and I did a few rounds over HTML. Compared to the extant work, it was pitiful. On the other hand, compared to the extant work, it was accessible. Yuri did understand the problems of complexity because he had to explain it over and over again. He was not even then completely sanguine about HTML's design but he knew we had to start somewhere and work together. He was also responsible for stopping some forward thinking work because he must have felt it competed with HTML. He said to me, "Yes, the design is awkward, and not the right thing, but today for the first time, SoftQuad is making money." And at that point, SGML quit being about just ideas and causes, and began to emphasise market. It was a healthy change. This I have to disagree with: "Most SGML proponents at the time were drug into the XML world kicking and screaming the entire way" No, they had to be convinced the self-selected group knew what they were doing. That wasn't immediately obvious and the HTMLer attitude of "We have all we need already" didn't help. What Yuri did was get those two groups to respect each other and start to work toward common cause. That is leadership and yes, that sets him apart in the history of SGML. Bosak had to pick that mantle up and he did a good job, but Yuri had to make us turn and pay attention first. It was a noisy thing but I am one who respects passion in those who believe a thing. What was going on was natural. Yuri was not the first of the founder's I met. For me, the first was Pamela Gennusa. That was extraordinarily lucky because she was regal, classy, and able to convey SGML as a solution to real pubs problems. We were building ETM systems and SGML wasn't designed for that. She could see the bridge. Next came Joan Smith who in a series of letters insisted I go to Goldfarb because I was up to my eyeballs in hypertext and SGML was the last piece, but for me, the critical piece because it gave us a way to solve the problem of the infamous "islands of automation" and it lead to healthier trees (the real, oxygen exchanging kind). I still have the letters from that period because they conveyed to me the excitement of the people. I was staring into Hytime when I finally met Yuri. Charles had insisted to me that Yuri was the guy to go to next with the ideas. He said Yuri would instantly know what to do with them. HTML wasn't on the radar yet and almost everything we did then was CALS-flavored by MIL-specs. We knew we had to go to the network, but the one thing the SGML community lacked was network expertise. We were mostly pubs people with a few hypertext weirdos tossed in for filler. Everyone was told that TCP-IP was dead and the Internet could not be secured. Most of the systems for DoD markup hypertext had to be secured and all the leading edge stuff had diagnostic system requirements, so needed a lot more if-then than HTML had in it when first shown. Over time, requirements converged and Yuri certainly understood the need for it. At the same time, he liked to borrow lines, borrow ideas, and everyone understood that what we did became community property quickly. If anything was true of the people in SGML that I met in those days, it was the incredible generosity they demonstrated with their ideas. I think some now would be very surprised if they read all the stuff I sent to the dumpster last weekend, just how forward the thinking actually was. It needed a protocol and a network. That was the last piece added to the puzzle. Then, it went back to the beginning to refactor the base technology and now we have XML. No one goes it alone and gets much done. Yuri went out and found the talent so no one would have to. Len http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h -----Original Message----- From: Betty L. Harvey [mailto:harvey@e...] I agree with what you say Len. However, in the world of XML Yuri stands out. I had the privilege of going to the first WWW conference in North America in Chicago in 1994. It changed my life - literally. I was a civil servant for the Navy working in CALS at the time (Len you will remember). I met Yuri at this conference for the first time. He was chairing a session called 'SGML on the Web'. At this conference he also announced Panorama - a free SGML browser for the web. He had such an impact on me that I gave up my safe government job with a great pension and followed him into this crazy world of SGML/XML. Yuri saw the benefit of HTML to the SGML world where other SGML leaders did not. Most SGML proponents at the time were drug into the XML world kicking and screaming the entire way. Not Yuri - he was leading the front by providing free tools (open source wasn't off the ground at that point in time) and evangelizing. I for one feel that if Yuri was still around some cohesiveness and sanity checks put into place with the proliferation of all the XML specifications being thrust upon us.
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