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Re: xml-dev-digest V1 #1

  • From: Randy Bryan <rbryan@C...>
  • To: xml-dev@x...
  • Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1972 20:09:49 -0500 (EST)

electronic engeneer

Please Please Please!!! 
Take my email address off of your list completely!!!

Why did you start sending these to me again!?????

Take my email address off of all of your lists.


On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, xml-dev-digest wrote:

> 
> xml-dev-digest        Thursday, April 27 2000        Volume 01 : Number 001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: 26 Apr 2000 14:56:19 -0400
> From: David Megginson <david@m...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...> writes:
> 
> > Take your favorite antacid and check out
> > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2551691,00.html
> > 
> > The essence of the article is that vertical industry B2B efforts are
> > flourishing but the "pure XML" efforts such as OASIS are not:
> > 
> > "The losers are pie-in-the-sky XML-indoctrinated organizations, such
> > as the Microsoft-spearheaded BizTalk.org and OASIS. The automakers
> > chose to bypass BizTalk and OASIS to develop proprietary (but
> > published) schemata. Every big organization will do the same, and
> > though some of their XML work may feed back up to OASIS or BizTalk,
> > every one wants standards for their cliques only."
> 
> I looked at the article, and it sounds about right (except for the
> headline and the conclusion) -- I never bet much on the success of
> schema repositories anyway.
> 
> In a sense, this is our own marketing hype coming back to haunt us.
> Two years ago, everyone was pushing XML like a tower of Babel that
> magically make all data formats compatible.  That sounded a lot better
> than the truth -- that XML is a simple, common layer for representing
> tree structures in a character stream -- but we certainly deserve our
> share of headlines like this now.
> 
> Conclusion: XML is succeeding, but not by the criteria that many in
> the XML community originally set.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> 
> David
> 
> - -- 
> David Megginson                 david@m...
>            http://www.megginson.com/
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:29:40 -0400
> From: Steve DeRose <Steven_DeRose@b...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> At 1:17 PM -0400 4/26/00, Michael Champion wrote:
> >Take your favorite antacid and check out
> >http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2551691,00.html
> >
> >The essence of the article is that vertical industry B2B efforts are
> >flourishing but the "pure XML" efforts such as OASIS are not:
> >
> >"The losers are pie-in-the-sky XML-indoctrinated organizations, such as the
> >Microsoft-spearheaded BizTalk.org and OASIS. The automakers chose to bypass
> >BizTalk and OASIS to develop proprietary (but published) schemata. Every big
> >organization will do the same, and though some of their XML work may feed
> >back up to OASIS or BizTalk, every one wants standards for their cliques
> >only."
> >
> >I tried to draft a response but couldn't figure out where to begin, given
> >the swamp of misconceptions the author seems to build upon.  Is this worth a
> >response, perhaps by a prominent person in the XML community, to distinguish
> >the undeniable success of XML from the possible failings of ebXML or
> >BizTalk?  For that matter, I'm not at all sure the author understands what
> >OASIS or Microsoft are trying to accomplish, so even their "failure" to
> >solve the world's problems may not be quite so stark as the author suggests.
> 
> I agree they have some naive ideas in the article; but overall, it looks
> like old news to me. I'm glad the press has now figured out what many XML
> people have been saying for a long time: XML gets rid of totally pointless
> incompatibility over how to punctuate your data structures when you pass
> them around, but it doesn't solve the problem of disagreeing over the real
> data structurest that ought to be passed. That's just what was intended.
> 
> Expecting XML to solve that would be like expecting linguistic grammar to
> solve political conflicts. Without a basic (if perhaps imperfect) agreement
> on grammar and vocabulary, all bets are off. But once you can actually talk
> to each other, you can *start* actually working on whatever the real
> differences are. Common language is necessary, but not sufficient.
> 
> Now in natural language it's best if negotiators speak some common
> language, but we have workarounds: highly skilled translators can
> substitute; and no culture makes their language intentionally opaque, or
> holds it under non-disclosure (well, maybe the Auca). Even so, translators
> simply do not exist for many combinations of the world's 5000 or so
> languages (300 or so if you only count ones with armies). So, for example,
> the UN uses only a few "main" languages; even a mere 300 languages would
> lead to 900 potential translations -- and there are many more B2B,
> e-commerce, and other corporate content things than a mere 300 or 5000.
> 
> Such linguistic workarounds are infeasible in computing, so we need a
> common language even more: for which XML is working quite well. XML saves
> writing a parser for every app; it saves worrying about what to do with
> CR/LF, or what the 3rd bit over in the 'charformat' mask byte is; it saves
> worrying whether *this* RDB's comma-delimited export form escapes "," with
> backslash or by quoting -- all that mindless, useless junk that has nothing
> to do with your information, but causes a continuous drip of wasted
> programmer-years.
> 
> But XML does *not* solve the problem of semantic heterogeneity (a topic
> discussed in reams of database articles). XML never meant to; nor does it
> seem a feasible task. From my perspective, one of the best things I
> expected from XML was simply that it would make the *real* semantic
> problems visible: it is no longer so easy to miss the substantive
> differences behind a veil of syntactic obfuscation. By making the problems
> visible, at least we can deal with them consciously and directly.
> 
> Well, now we're there. XML lets us all see, in plain text and schemas, just
> what the differences between two competing systems were to begin with; and
> companies that want to interchange, convert, or compromise can do so
> explicitly and clearly. The process also helps directly: as companies and
> whole industries move to XML, they get a perfect chance to review and
> perhaps fix schema problems that have been there a long time.
> 
> Companies that are arch-rivals may avoid compromise, or even introduce
> different schemas just to create incompatibility; I don't think there's
> anything we can do about that. But there's a Darwinian process going on
> here, and being gratuitously different can lead to extinction. Working
> together is more efficient than working alone, and economies of scale favor
> standards in the long run.
> 
> At the same time, perhaps we will find that some of the mavericks have seen
> something everybody else missed, and we'll all be tweaking our schemas to
> add it.
> 
> Let the weeds grow along with the wheat; if we try to root them out now,
> we'll doubtless kill some of the good stuff too. They'll be weeded out in
> time.
> 
> Just saw Tim's posting while writing this one. I second his points too.
> 
> Steven_DeRose@B...; http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd
> Chief Scientist, Scholarly Technology Group, and
>    Adjunct Associate Professor, Brown University
> North American Editor, the Text Encoding Initiative
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:22:13 -0400
> From: James Tauber <JTauber@b...>
> Subject: RE: PC Week announces death of XML
> 
> One of the problems I have with it is that it makes the mistake (as similar
> articles do) of confusing XML with a particular vocabulary and seems to
> suggest that if a particular XML vocabulary fails, then XML has therefore
> failed.
> 
> James
> 
> > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2551691,00.html
> > 
> > The analysis is kind of dumb, but some of the reportage is 
> > worth reading. -T.
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:41:53 -0400
> From: "Karl Best" <kfbest@e...>
> Subject: RE: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> This is very similar to a number of other articles I've seen over the past
> year from ZDNet and other publications that are critical of and predicting
> the demise of XML because there are too many versions of it. The author(s)
> of these articles (I haven't noticed if these have all been written by the
> same guy) has not yet learned the distinction between a language and a
> metalanguage, and assumes that since there are multiple "versions" of XML
> (actually different applications) that there's something wrong there.
> 
> As far as the auto industry example, Taschek sees the manufacturers setting
> up a B2B exchange not under the auspices of OASIS and thinks that's a bad
> thing. It would be a bad thing if it *were* under the auspices of the
> consortium. They are doing what they're supposed to: building an e-commerce
> infrastructure based on XML standards. GM, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler built a
> shopping mall using standard architectural specifications. Volkswagon built
> another shopping mall down the street. Fine. OASIS didn't build the shopping
> mall, but that's not OASIS' business.
> 
> He just doesn't get it.
> 
> </karl>
> ======================================================================
> Karl F. Best
> OASIS
> Director, Technical Operations
> 978.667.5115 x206
> karl.best@o...
> http://www.oasis-open.org
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:40:38 -0700
> From: "Dave Winer" <dave@u...>
> Subject: SOAP v1.1
> 
> IBM and Lotus joined in co-authorship of SOAP, and the 1.1 spec is out. 
> 
> http://static.userland.com/xmlRpcCom/soap/SOAPv11.htm
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:48:16 -0700
> From: Bob DeRemer <Bob.Deremer@w...>
> Subject: Biztalk Framework 1.0 & C++ [as opposed to VB]
> 
> We're using the biztalk framework 1.0 specs and have implemented a solution
> on NT 4.0 using MSMQ.  While the whole approach and design looks good and
> should migrate to Biztalk Server 2000, I'm trying to determine if anyone has
> generated C++ Plug-ins and Application Adaptors [as opposed to the VB
> Add-ins].  It looks like I can generate my own based on the documentation in
> the Jumpstart Kit, but I wanted to verify [with someone who may have already
> done this] the procedure and if there are any caveats to doing this.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help,
> Bob
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: 26 Apr 2000 17:30:47 -0400
> From: Norman Walsh <ndw@n...>
> Subject: List server: "fixed"
> 
> As of a few minutes ago, and apparently running without error,
> all of the lists served by OASIS have been reconfigured. Each is
> now archived, digested, and running bulk_mailer to improve
> throughput. The caching DNS server is running and slowly
> rebuilding its cache since my recent reboot.
> 
> All of the list files have been moved off the root partition so
> it shouldn't fill up.
> 
> I didn't get the configuration perfect on the first attempt this
> afternoon, so there may have been a few odd bounces. But all that
> should be behind us now.
> 
> BTW, OASIS appears to have the entire archive for xml-dev
> online.  (Not on the web, but available with the 'get' and
> 'index' commands, although I haven't tested that yet...)
> 
> If anything still seems broken, please let me know.
> 
>                                         Be seeing you,
>                                           norm
> 
> - -- 
> Norman Walsh <ndw@n...> | It is good to have an end to journey
> http://nwalsh.com/            | toward; but it is the journey that
>                               | matters, in the end.--Ursula K. Le Guin
> 
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:42:00 -1000 (HST)
> From: "Betty L. Harvey" <harvey@e...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> On 26 Apr 2000, David Megginson wrote:
> 
> > "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...> writes:
> > 
> > > Take your favorite antacid and check out
> > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2551691,00.html
> > > 
> > I looked at the article, and it sounds about right (except for the
> > headline and the conclusion) -- I never bet much on the success of
> > schema repositories anyway.
> > 
> 
> I would would also point out that 'schema repositories' the way
> BizTalk.Org and Oasis.org have implemented them are confusing and possibly
> dangerous.  Both OASIS and BizTalk [expletive deleted]-in any DTD or schema which are
> provided to them.  I was at a meeting recently where an 'unnamed' company
> stated that their DTD was the 'e-commerce catalog standard DTD' because it
> was 'approved' by OASIS.
> 
> The DTD didn't meet general catalog requirements and it didn't parse -- of
> course, very few DTD's actually parse coming out of e-commerce
> initiatives.
> 
> I think providing a 'standard repository' requires a certain level of
> technical scrutiny and responsibility.
> 
> Betty
> 
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 
> Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |        410-787-9200 FAX: 9830
> 245 Hammarlee Road                   | 
> Glen Burnie, Md.  21060              |
> harvey@e...                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
> URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/  
> 
> 
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:13:29 +0100
> From: "Steven Livingstone" <s.livingstone@b...>
> Subject: RE: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> In the world of XML, we can map between different schema's for an particular
> industry anyway.
> 
> Anyway, sure there are a couple of examples of large companies creating
> their own schema's, but as these are published, the best will rise to the
> top and be used by the many large, medium and small business across the
> world.
> 
> I am involved in a project which will be promoting schema re-use to 240,000
> businesses and if a schema exists, we will re-use it - eg. HR shemas, order
> exchange, advertising schemas, news and article shema's to name but a few.
> We wouldn't consider any other method !!
> 
> I don't think we could (or ever expected) everyone to agree on one schema
> for any industry, but there *will* emerge a limited number of re-usable
> standard schemas and hence a limited number of mappings between them.
> 
> If it end's up GM, Ford, DC and then Volkswagen devlop to different schemas
> re-used throughout the automobile industry, where is the problem??
> 
> Regards,
> Steven
> 
> Author
> Pro XML
> http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
> Pro Site Server 3, Wrox Press
> http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
> Pro Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
> http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
> 
> Steven Livingstone
> Glasgow, Scotland.
> 07771 957 280 or +447771957280
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:08:04 -0700
> From: Eldar Musayev <eldarm@m...>
> Subject: Multiplication of standards (was: RE: PC Week on "Why XML is Fail ing" ?????)
> 
> Number of XML applications, of course, is not a problem, 
> even without Biztalk/OASIS, that's what XSLT is for.
> However when we talk about other kinds of standards
> like XLink, XPath, XSchema, X...,
> sprouting out as mushrooms after the rain, it may be
> very well a problem. Looks like we got a new paradygm
> of programming in XML and now trying to fit in all
> the von Neuman/structured/OOP programming developed for 
> about 40 years. Good example - XSchema/XSD vs. IDL.
> 
> And don't say that all these languages has a good reason
> to be, sure they have! It's just that we build a parallel
> universe, instead of improving existing one. And building 
> parallel universes has some intrinsic dangers.
> 
> Eldar
> 
> - -----
> Eldar A. Musayev, Ph.D.
> eldarm@m...
> 
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:19:51 -0700
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> Michael,
> 
> > The automakers chose to bypass BizTalk and OASIS to develop proprietary
> (but published) schemata.
> 
> No surprise here. This has been something that's been the topic of panel
> discussions at several conferences (DISA, XML One), and I've heard it often
> in private discussions. Big software vendors are cognizant of what their
> customers want and what they are planning. I've heard time and again that
> large corporations were forging ahead, working with trading partners in
> their own industry, instead of waiting for initiatives to produce standard
> schemas (├╝ber schemas).
> 
> Recently, for example, there was a meeting in Washington, D.C. to organize
> government contractors and agencies to cooperate on developing schemas and
> standards for e-commerce. Several of the big contractors declined the
> invitation to attend. Shortly after they announced an industry-specific
> initiative.
> 
> > to distinguish the undeniable success of XML from the possible failings of
> ebXML or
> > BizTalk
> 
> If you ignore the headline, it's clear John Taschek is writing about XML as
> a vehicle for e-commerce, not XML as a markup technology. The fact that some
> big players are pursuing industry-specific solutions does not mean ebXML and
> BizTalk will fold their tents. For one thing, there are a lot of small and
> medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) who want to participate in e-commerce.
> 
> > For that matter, I'm not at all sure the author understands what OASIS or
> Microsoft are trying to accomplish
> 
> Here's an example of the problem with discussion groups. We don't know
> whether you've done any research to substantiate your assertions about the
> author. When he publishes something, it goes through a fact-checking process
> because his publication is aware of libel laws.
> 
> Did you, for example, listen to this panel discussion? The author discussed
> business-to-business integration and a shoot-out his lab conducted with the
> U. of Minnesota and Power Team (division of SPX)?
> 
> http://technetcast.ddj.com/tnc_play_stream.html?stream_id=9
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> See you at AD2000 London (www.applicationdevelopment.com)
> XML DevCon 2000 New York City (www.xmldevcon2000.com)
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:04:33 -0700
> From: Tim Bray <tbray@t...>
> Subject: Antarctic Job Posting
> 
> Hi all; my new startup uses XML plumbing but isn't all that XML-oriented;
> I'm posting the jobs here anyhow just because there's a chance I'll know
> anyone who might express interest. -Tim
> =======================================================================
> Antarcti.ca Systems Inc. is a venture-backed Vancouver-based startup which 
> is building a general-purpose network mapping and visualization platform.  
> Antarcti.ca's founder & CEO is Tim Bray, who co-founded Open Text 
> (NASDAQ:OTEX) in 1989 and helped invent XML in 1996-98.
> 
> The jobs will have the usual VC-financed Internet startup flavour:
> ridiculously high intensity, decent salaries, juicy stock options (the
> earlier the juicier), and a chance to change the fabric of the net.  The
> founding partners are fortysomething and have run some companies before,
> so we think we'll be a bit better-organized than your average Internet
> startup.
> 
> What we're looking for:
> 
> Client Development
>  Our client software operates in 2 and 3 dimensions; it talks to our 
>  database engine via XML over HTTP.  The database is already running.
>  We need graphically gifted and imaginative people who can imagine 
>  what the future looks like and are on top of enough 2D and 3D
>  technology that they can build what they can imagine, and get it to 
>  run on the average desktop.
> 
> Business Development/Product Management
>  We have an immense amount of work to do in positioning our offering so
>  that it provides a pleasant and productive user experience, and then
>  in getting the word out to the first wave of prospective users.  We
>  need people who understand positioning, marketing, and the Web.
> 
> Server-side Domain Leads
>  The back-end software includes an SQL database (MySQL for now, but 
>  that's not carved in stone), a monster robot implemented in perl, and 
>  a superoptimized run-time engine implemented as an Apache module in C;
>  (in-memory database, no SQL at runtime!).  We need people to be 
>  development leads in each of these areas.  The use of SQL is not very 
>  advanced; the Apache module uses basic interfaces; the robot does not 
>  use perl exotica, so you don't have to be an SQL, Apache, or perl god 
>  to qualify.  We are however going to be driving a very public website 
>  so we need expertise in the production of robust and very very fast 
>  software.  
> 
> Web Site Operations
>  In the near future, we'll be rolling out a monster 7/24 gigahit-capable 
>  website; we're going to need a Director of Operations who's been 
>  around this track before.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:53:36 -0400
> From: "G. Ken Holman" <gkholman@C...>
> Subject: Re: xsl:sort by attribute value?
> 
> At 00/04/26 19:49 +0300, Marin Dimitrov wrote:
> >can I use <xsl:sort> to sort elements by attribute value?
> 
> Yes, the XPath expression in select= is relative to the node being sorted.
> 
> If you had data along the lines of:
> 
>    <emp empnbr="234">.....
>    <emp empnbr="123">....
> 
> ... and if you were using iteration, you would use something along the 
> lines of:
> 
>    <xsl:for-each select="emp">
>      <xsl:sort select="@empnbr"/>
>      ....
>    </xsl:for-each>
> 
> XSL, XSLT and XPath questions would be better posted to the following list:
> 
>    http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
> 
> There are a number of subscribers who would enthusiastically respond to 
> such questions.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> .............. Ken
> 
> - --
> G. Ken Holman                    mailto:gkholman@C...
> Crane Softwrights Ltd.             http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
> Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0   +1(613)489-0999   (Fax:-0995)
> Web site: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products.
> Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath      ISBN 1-894049-04-7
> Next instructor-led training:    2000-05-02,2000-05-11/12,2000-05-15,
> - -                                    2000-06-12,2000-06-13,2001-01-27
> 
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:36:47 -0700
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> > But XML does *not* solve the problem of semantic heterogeneity
> [ snip ]
> > one of the best things I expected from XML was simply that it would make
> the *real* semantic
> > problems visible
> 
> No question there has to be semantic agreement. Those issues are being
> addressed:
> 
> "Syntax-Neutral Definition of Business Semantics"
> Martin Bryan
> http://www.personal.u-net.com/~sgml/neutral.htm
> 
> 
> "Executable Trading-Partner Agreements in Electronic Commerce"
> Martin Sachs, Asit Dan, Thao Nugyen, Robert Kearney, Hidayatullah, Daniel
> Dias
> http://www.ibm.com/developer/xml/tpaml/tpapaper.pdf
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> See you at AD2000 London (www.applicationdevelopment.com)
> XML DevCon 2000 New York City (www.xmldevcon2000.com)
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@x...&BODY=unsubscribe%20xml-dev
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:07:10 -0400
> From: "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> To: "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...>; <xml-dev@x...>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> 
> >
> > If you ignore the headline, it's clear John Taschek is writing about XML
> as
> > a vehicle for e-commerce, not XML as a markup technology
> 
> I guess we should remember that authors seldom write headlines ... but
> nevertheless "Why XML is Failing" is so misleading that I for one have a
> hard time ignoring it. If it had been "XML is not the Holy Grail of
> eCommerce" I suppose I wouldn't have been so irritated ... but then again I
> wouldn't have bothered reading it.
> 
> But I'm truly curious -- does the "real world" think of "XML" as a vehicle
> for e-commerce rather than a markup technology? The only way I can reconcile
> the article in question with the reality I understand is if "XML" means "the
> one true universal data format that supposedly allows automatic
> interoperability."  The point that "you live by the hype, you die by the
> hype" is well taken, but I don't thing ANYONE hyped XML to the point that
> the article implies.
> 
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:41:08 -0700
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> John Taschek wrote:
> "BizTalk and OASIS aim to use standards-based markup languages ... to help
> companies develop a standard way of talking to each other."
> 
> Karl Best wrote:
> > He just doesn't get it.
> 
> Karl,
> 
> Let's not all jump on this bandwagon (shoot the messenger)! I read the
> article and included an excerpt above. The excerpt clearly indicates John
> Taschek understands the concept of markup languages (plural) -- as opposed
> to a singular XML standard for e-commerce.
> 
> As for the example of the auto industry B2B exchanges, what he said in
> essence was participants in those exchanges will develop proprietary
> industry-specific schemas. He sees that as a loss for ebXML (OASIS) and
> BizTalk. Looking at this objectively, that's probably true. It would be
> beneficial if the auto industry was developing schemas in the context of a
> working group in a standards body -- and sharing expertise such as
> conceptual modeling with participants from other industries.
> 
> Before we publicly question someone's knowledge or ability, don't we have a
> responsibility to check our facts? Your message criticizes ZDNet and the
> press, but (in my mind) you don't really make a case for why John Taschek
> should be painted with the broad brush you are using on other writers (not
> understanding the distinction between metalanguage and language).
> 
> (By the way, the headline of those articles is often the choice of an
> editor, not the author.)
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> See you at AD2000 London (www.applicationdevelopment.com)
> XML DevCon 2000 New York City (www.xmldevcon2000.com)
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
> This is xml-dev, the mailing list for XML developers.
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@x...&BODY=unsubscribe%20xml-dev
> List archives are available at http://xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:10:45 -0700
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> > But I'm truly curious -- does the "real world" think of "XML" as a vehicle
> > for e-commerce rather than a markup technology?
> 
> At every conference since last October, we've asked the audience what they
> were doing with XML. The numbers have been consistent. 75% are planning or
> doing B2B e-commerce projects. (OK -- not very scientific -- and maybe that
> only proves people doing B2B projects have a bigger budget for conferences.)
> 
> > I don't thing ANYONE hyped XML to the point that the article implies.
> 
> Listen to (or read) Steve Ballmer's remarks over the past year. His title is
> CEO, but he sounds like Steve Ballmer, XML Evangelist. Here's the URL for
> his recent speech about XML being a "fundamental shift" in the way we do
> business and government:
> 
> http://www.xml.org/xmlorg_news/ceo-xml.shtml
> 
> Ballmer said:
> XML will become the "universal medium by which Web sites and users of Web
> sites communicate,"
> 
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> See you at AD2000 London (www.applicationdevelopment.com)
> XML DevCon 2000 New York City (www.xmldevcon2000.com)
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
> This is xml-dev, the mailing list for XML developers.
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@x...&BODY=unsubscribe%20xml-dev
> List archives are available at http://xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:01:43 -0400
> From: "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "KenNorth" <KenNorth@e...>
> To: "Michael Champion" <Mike.Champion@s...>; <xml-dev@x...>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> 
> 
> > > I don't thing ANYONE hyped XML to the point that the article implies.
> >
> > Listen to (or read) Steve Ballmer's remarks over the past year.
> > http://www.xml.org/xmlorg_news/ceo-xml.shtml
> >
> 
> You got me there!  Ballmer's hype is pretty monumental, paraphrased later in
> this article as "Ballmer's optimism that XML will flawlessly usher in a new
> means of doing business." So I can see how a reasonable journalist could
> feel the need to deflate this particular hype balloon.
> 
> Thanks for setting me straight ... it's scary to look back on such hype; it
> reminds me of 1997 or so when Java was hyped as the Windows-killing
> universal client... and of 1998 when it was considered a failure for not
> sending Bill G. to the poorhouse.  We should probably get ready for a spate
> of "XML didn't solve the world's problems, so it's dead" articles. Sigh.
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@x...&BODY=unsubscribe%20xml-dev
> List archives are available at http://xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:08:23 -0500
> From: Len Bullard <cbullard@h...>
> Subject: Re: List server: "fixed"
> 
> Norman Walsh wrote:
> > 
> > As of a few minutes ago, and apparently running without error,
> > all of the lists served by OASIS have been reconfigured. Each is
> > now archived, digested, and running bulk_mailer to improve
> > throughput. The caching DNS server is running and slowly
> > rebuilding its cache since my recent reboot.
> 
> Three cheers, for Norm!  
> 
> Thanks Norm.
> 
> len
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@x...&BODY=unsubscribe%20xml-dev
> List archives are available at http://xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> ***************************************************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:04:25 -0500
> From: Len Bullard <cbullard@h...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> KenNorth wrote:
> > 
> > Ballmer said:
> > XML will become the "universal medium by which Web sites and users of Web
> > sites communicate,"
> 
> Not me.  I just do midi and MP3.  ;-)
> 
> Articles like this are to be expected.   XML doesn't care.
> 
> XML *is* overhyped and a bit overvalued.  Doesn't mean it 
> doesn't work.  Just means everyone won't agree all of the 
> time what to use it for. Industry specific schema's are 
> fine.  More work for us.  More ownership for them. 
> 
> I saw a great XML script yesterday.  It used SMIL primitives 
> and additional tags to feed a vocoder speech and a talkingHead 
> 3D file gestures.   The inventor calls it Wylbur.  Cool as 
> all heck for an old hoss like me used to the hay of CALS. 
> Fascinating stuff ahead as the artists begin to see the potential 
> in namespace integrated languages for creating XML personality 
> profiles for 3D characters driven by XML gesture langauages: 
> 
> Karma ML or just KarML. A horse is horse of course, Wylbur.
> 
> So, really, let them babble.  Unless you are one of those who 
> has some kind of stock option rated by how many sites use 
> XML, more people get it than ever, and by gum, they are 
> enjoying it too.
> 
> Woohoo.
> 
> len
> 
> 
> ***************************************************************************
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:13:12 -0700
> From: Paul Tchistopolskii <paul@q...>
> Subject: Re: PC Week on "Why XML is Failing" ?????
> 
> > > > I don't thing ANYONE hyped XML to the point that the article implies.
> > >
> > > Listen to (or read) Steve Ballmer's remarks over the past year.
> > > http://www.xml.org/xmlorg_news/ceo-xml.shtml
> > >
> > 
> > You got me there!  Ballmer's hype is pretty monumental, paraphrased later in
> > this article as "Ballmer's optimism that XML will flawlessly usher in a new
> > means of doing business." 
> 
> Probably I don't understand the difference between MS hype 
> and Sun/Oracle/Netscape/W3C hype, but I found *absolutely*  nothing 
> extraordinary in Ballmer's statements ( I used the URL above, 
> maybe you are discussing some other article ? )
> 
> There are very few quotes of Ballmer's words and I would like to 
> comment on those quotes.
> 
> <quote>
> Calling it an "incredibly important invention," Ballmer says XML 
> "will make it much more possible to link Web sites and to link 
> consumers to Web sites in rich, interesting ways." 
> </quote>
> 
> Where is the hype? X-link, XSLT and some other W3C 
> stuff  ( with some support  by  web browsers ) realy 
> make it much more possible to link Web sites and link 
> consumers to Web sites in rich, interesting ways.  
> 
> Where is the hype here ? Probably the hype is 
> that Ballmer is using the word 'XML' when he should 
> actualy use the wording "XML and some associated 
> XML standards/recommendations" ? I don't think 
> he should be blamed for such a subtile thing.
> 
> <quote>
> XML will become the "universal medium by which Web 
> sites and users of Web sites communicate," Ballmer says. 
> </quote>
> 
> Where is the hype here? Should Ballmer start explaining 
> that :
> 
> As we all know ( at least those of us who have spend 
> some time reading "Mythical man-month" by Brooks ) 
> the core thing in software development appears to be 
> not the code but data structures ( AKA dataflows ).
> 
> XML makes some step and provides some simplification 
> here ( in the core area of software development).
> 
> XML provides ( sometimes trivial ) improvements with 
> serialization of relatively complex data structures in 
> a *bit*  more open and portable fashion comparing 
> XML to any known 'competitive' solutions including:
> 
> binary and / or 
> proprietary and / or 
> oversimplified ( comma-separted ASCII files )  and / or 
> not scalable ( HTML ) and / or
> bloated ( SGML )  
> 
> The data and dataflows is the backbone of 
> software development. *any* simplification
> ( even *very* subtile and *trivial* ) in this area is 
> incredibly influencing.
> 
> I bet that  *any*  developer after he discovers how 
> easy it is to write some home-grown configuration 
> file in XML and to process it  with DOM,  he will 
> then *never*  think about writing  yet-another-comma-or-:-or
> some-other-thing separated.ini/config file.
> 
> Is this trivial simplification? Yes it is. ( like many other 
> simplifications provided by XML )
> 
> But:
> 
> There is nothing *better* yet. This is Ballmer's 
> point. 
> 
> Are there any alternatives to XML to build the 
> 'logical layer on top of IP' ?
> 
> I have to agree with Ballmer that there is no alternatives
> for *this* problem domain.
> 
> ( I know what is Corba and I don't think  
> it is alternative , because it is much harder to use.
> I'm not saying that Corba is better than XML or opposite.
> I'm saying that XML simplifies *much* wider spector of 
> tasks than Corba does - even Corba  / RMI simplifies some 
> things much better ).
> 
> That means  Ballmer's point :
> 
> "universal medium by which Web 
> sites and users of Web sites communicate," 
> 
> is  *perfectly* reasonable. I see no hype here. If somebody 
> thinks that Ballmer is wrong and the medium would be built 
> on top of  binary ( Corba) / and/or  simplified ( HTML, csv e t.c) 
> and/or some other way - that somebody will just make 
> another 'prediction' ( like:  Corba will take over and will become 
> that 'universal medium'. ).
> 
> But I see absolutely no hype. Ballmer says that Web will be 
> built on XML instead of HTML. 
> 
> Is is legal to call HTML 'universal medium' of current Web ? 
> I think  it is. That means it is also legal to call XML 
> 'universal medium' of the tomorrow's Web.
> 
> <quote>
> Encoding data in XML will let various platforms "talk" to each other. 
> This is key to taking e-commerce and e-government to the next level, 
> Ballmer predicts. 
> </quote>
> 
> No hype here. 
> 
>  When *any*  system allows an option to serialize 
> some data into 'open' text format such a system is 
> *always* *much* more scalable than the same system 
> with  no such ability. Just imagine if Adobe Frame Maker
> with have no MIF format. 
> 
> The biggest obstacle for interoperability are vendors.
> I don't know why vendors are closing their formats. 
> 
> 1.  XML 'forces' proprietary system to behave 
> in 'more open' fasion. ( Politicaly ).
> 
> 2. 1.  XML 'forces' proprietary system to behave 
> in 'more open' fasion. ( Technicaly ).
> 
> Nobody prevents vendors to ship 'unreadable' XML file, 
> but having it in XML at least simplifies the process of hacking 
> the format, when you have to write some extension
> for yet another proprietary system. 
> 
> Is it trivial simplification when you need to reverese-engeneer 
> 'closed' text file but not 'closed' binary file? Yes it is trivial. 
> But is *is* a simplification in the core part of dataflow / data. 
> ( See above ).
> 
> > Thanks for setting me straight ... it's scary to look back on such hype; it
> > reminds me of 1997 or so when Java was hyped as the Windows-killing
> > universal client... and of 1998 when it was considered a failure for not
> > sending Bill G. to the poorhouse.  We should probably get ready for a spate
> > of "XML didn't solve the world's problems, so it's dead" articles. Sigh.
> 
> Hyping Java to kill Windows on the client side was just plain 
> *technicaly* *stupid*. 
> 
> ( Let me not explain what particular technical mistakes have 
> been made by designers of Java language, I think those who 
> are aware of Java internals already know what I mean. People 
> who wrote Juice have some nice explanations on their website, 
> and early books written by some of Java inventors also 
> have some reasonable and honest statements. 
> Don't know what happens in second editions of the 
> same book.).
> 
> I don't see any hype of  this kind in Ballmer's quotes. I see 
> no statements which are stupid from technical standpoit. 
> More. I agree with Ballmer from technical standpoint.
> 
> I see a lot of hype from people who are making money 
> publishing some stupid articles and playing some 
> political games instead of being honest and responsible
> ( I mean  some journalists ).  But that's typical thing. It has 
> nothing to do with the technology. Politics and media walk 
> hand by hand in any country. 
> 
> I don't think Ballmer should be in any way blamed for the 
> quotes I found in this article.  Probably there is some 
> other URL somewhere?
> 
> Rgds.Paul.
> 
> PS. Can't belive I'm defending MS CEO ;-)
> 
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> End of xml-dev-digest V1 #1
> ***************************
> 




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