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[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] RE: XML Editors - Word 2000??
 I have had a look at a few editors now. One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in them is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to insert your text. To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, but feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). What other methods do/are XML editors using to make it very much easier for users. I imagine some intelligent package which knew where you were in a particular document and, working with a DTD, could provide you with a list of possible tags which could be applied and relevent attributes (if these apply). Of course the DTD would have to be provided as a template for the user (as would any style sheets). I expect (hope) that this would allow Content Providers to type as they normally would, but give them the power of XML - of course users would have to think as they typed (rather than the current 86,000 w.p.m that they do now). Is such a things available yet or in the pipleline? steven Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@c... http://www.citix.com Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcus Carr [SMTP:mrc@a...] > Sent: 29 June 1999 00:57 > To: Ketil Z Malde > Cc: xml-dev@i... > Subject: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > > > Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > > > People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > > > working with the structure, > > > > So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? > > Wow, you are grumpy. Do I really need to rephrase that sentence? > > > If you insist that people bright enough to work with legislation are > > too stupid to grok the simple context of tags, I would suggest you > > underestimate them. Of course they won't understand it if you do your > > best to hide structure behind formatting. > > It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of focus. If you're > paying > a lot of money to obtain someone's expertise about the law, it's not > practical (and may even be financially foolish) to pay them to fiddle > around > with tags. What would you say to the legal expert who said that anyone > smart > enough to understand XML tagging should be capable of writing legislation? > Why do we assume that just because we have a need for XML data, all sorts > of > different professions are going to accommodate us at their own expence? > > > My experiences with those tools are kind of mediocre - that could of > > course be due to being exposed to SGML first, and the tools later. > > The problem is that the tools focus on the wrong end of the problem - > > how the document looks when printed on paper - instead of on what the > > document *is*. > > I'm not saying that it's the right way to go in all cases, just that I'm > sick of having people ask if they can author in Word and me telling them > they have to use MultiEdit or Emacs. They don't want to hear it and I > don't > want to say it. There is a strong correlation between what a document > looks > like on paper and what it is - as paper publishing is still inevitable in > some industries, they are often nearly the same thing. It won't work > maintaining that I've been suckered by applications - my experience in > SGML > predates any WYSIWYG tools by many years and even now I use MultiEdit over > any application. Years of banging my head against the wall have cured me > of > the urge to persist with that as a solution for clients (and left me with > a > near-constant ringing in my ears...) > > > Actually, forms for entering database records is much closer to what > > I'd like for SGML input. I like XEmacs and the psgml-based html-mode; > > on loading a document with the .html extension, the user is prompted > > for a title, and presented with a buffer containing a rough framework > > of an HTML document, something like > > > > <!DOCTYPE blah blah> > > <html> > > <head> > > <title>your title here</title> > > </head> > > <body> > > <h1>your title here</h1> > > (some empty lines) > > <hr> > > (some signature stuff, last change and a mailto: link) > > </body> > > </html> > > > > You don't have to be a genius to work that one out. And this is > > considered difficult and obscure. If somebody is remotely familiar > > with the editor, it's about three minutes to explain where to put what > > information, and why, and off you go - and the built in parser > > restricts you to the valid elements and attributes at any point in the > > document. > > Wunderbar! And you get valid HTML out the other side, you say? Have you > tried modifying it for DocBook? Ironically, FrameMaker+SGML will allow you > to edit your data in a visual tree-based interface, though I don't think > much of it personally. > > I find it interesting that you are looking for an application that will > help > you create good data, but apparently begrudge others the same thing. Your > preferred interface involves the use of raw tags; I'm maintaining that > some > others may want even more help. I use MultiEdit - by your logic, I should > be > running you down for looking for a guided syntax editor. It doesn't have > to > be ugly to create correct data. > > > The point is that if all you see is italics vs. normal, and you know > > about a button which gives you italics, then that button is what > > you're going to press. Sure, people may mistake the meaning of tags, > > but they are a) restricted in what context they may appear, and b) > > labeled with (hopefully something more meaningful than typographical > > information, and c) supplied with a helpful comment in the DTD, which > > the editor can display. > > I think you're considering users in too narrow a band - they aren't all > bereft of any understanding about structure. They always understand what > you're trying to achieve, they just want it to be easy for them to use. An > application is an interface to the structure that doesn't interfere with > the > content. An application designer is the one that tries to ensure that both > objectives are satisfied. > > > > There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, > > > but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over > > > well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the > > > analysis. > > > > Of *course* you should require validity. What else would be the point > > of using SGML? If you want formatting oriented documents with > > no guarantee of correctness, it's not hard to find. > > You're mixing up what I'm saying - well-formedness doesn't equate to > format > oriented documents and the subject still says "XML Editors". I'm saying > that > validity allows you to guide the user by restricting the available > elements > whereas well-formed doesn't. > > > -- > Regards, > > Marcus Carr email: mrc@a... > ___________________________________________________________________ > Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au > ___________________________________________________________________ > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > - Einstein > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@i... > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@i... the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@i... the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@i...) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@i... Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@i... the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@i... the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@i...) 
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