RE: JSON, tides and XML

From: <w3c@drrw.info>
To: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>, "xml-dev@l..." <xml-dev@l...>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:15:21 -0700

Play the video

Simon,

You see - I told you I'm first to do things different - why the heck would you think I'm using something as ghastly as XSD schema to do this?! ; -)

>>> "Much of my point in this recent conversation - the piece that really
seems to make people angry, in any case - is that creating such
standards is a bad idea, and schema a particularly dangerous enabler. As
a result, that claim doesn't have much positive effect on me." <<<

Completely agree!

All that XSD schema does is tell you the millions of possible permutations that you may encounter.

Instead the CAM template hones in on the WYSIWYG view of the exchange - complete with content use rules - code lists - SQL lookups - and annotations for content hinting and DBmapping. Plus most important - you can have dynamic content components - essential for versioning - or dealing with nuances from 500 trading partners foibles in their application systems.

Structure + Content + Rules + Annotations + Components + Policy in one tidy XML package = CAM template.

While we may never get to the Nirvana of complete automation - its a huge jump start.

And because we use Dictionaries of XML components in the designer mode - you can assemble and reuse for a domain. So defining your standard around those reusable assets makes much more sense - this is truly what people think intuitively of as they look conceptually at their data exchange needs - Person, Address, Order Item, Customer, Patient, Student, and so on.

But we can generate an XSD schema if you still need it for your tooling - e.g. JAXB binding or Form tool designer or JSON tool. All driven with by the power of XSLT and XPath over your XML definitions.

I really do not need to reinvent all this rich capability for JSON that does not have it.

; -)

David

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: JSON, tides and XML
From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
Date: Sun, April 28, 2013 8:08 pm
To: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>

On 4/28/13 6:06 PM, w3c@drrw.info wrote:
> Adults

Yes, this is where is gets ugly. XML folks seem to think they're more
grown up than people working with other approaches. Though perhaps the
XML community is graying? (I am.)

> should really be using XML for extended information exchanges, and
> especially for country, state or international standards.

Much of my point in this recent conversation - the piece that really
seems to make people angry, in any case - is that creating such
standards is a bad idea, and schema a particularly dangerous enabler. As
a result, that claim doesn't have much positive effect on me.

It likely has more appeal to most everyone else here, however.

> You may be able to get away with JSON for something really trivial
> and local - such as town bus route numbers, bus stops and times of
> the next bus - as an open data feed - but for anything with real
> substance and content depth and relationships and semantics - you are
> IMHO going to want what XML provides to handle that.

I no longer see the advantage of trying to stamp everything into
excessively specified XML formats so you can talk with the humans as
rarely as possible. I know that's been the EDI dream forever, but it's
a perverse dream at best.

When you actually have conversations with the people whose computers are
communicating with your computers, there are other paths to "real
substance", "content depth", and even semantics. They aren't global
standards.

XML has a deep advantage over JSON, in that its verbosity and structure
makes it easier to transform. However, JSON practice, in particular its
deep aversion to standardizing conversation by committee, gives it
practical advantages that don't appear very often in XML culture.

Instead, we grudgingly convert back and forth and wonder why those
strange people don't appreciate our tools and approach.

Thanks,
--
Simon St.Laurent
http://simonstl.com/

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