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RE: Quiz: what's the value space of the <Publisher> element?

  • From: "Jim Tivy" <jimt@bluestream.com>
  • To: "'Jim Tivy'" <jimt@bluestream.com>,<xml-dev@l...>
  • Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:41:28 -0700

RE:  Quiz: what's the value space of the <Publisher> element?
As a build out of my previous EMail...

Does Publisher have a value space and if so what is it?  Perhaps it's
simplest values space is xs:string.  However, the intention of the word
"Publisher" suggests more - organizations that publish. As well, "Publisher"
may not be full name of the data element.  Perhaps there are two data
elements as expressed by a schema path:

1. /magazine/Publisher
2. /book/Publisher

These two data elements are two intentions although a publisher may publish
both books and magazines.

Perhaps Publisher cannot occur outside these schema paths - so Publisher is
a broad element that is always more specialized in it usage.

And within a certain "system" the only acceptable values my exist in a table
somewhere (or the Xml equivalent of a table), normalization being what it
is.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Tivy [mailto:jimt@bluestream.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 10:44 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE:  Quiz: what's the value space of the <Publisher>
element?

This is an old problem in database systems - see discussion of intention and
extension by CJ Date in Intro Database Systems.

The value space of Publisher may in fact be constrained by the extension
(all the values) in a Publisher table.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Manola [mailto:fmanola@acm.org] 
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:09 AM
To: Costello, Roger L.
Cc: 'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'
Subject: Re:  Quiz: what's the value space of the <Publisher>
element?

Roger--

Your claim seems to be along the lines of "the sky is falling".  Just  
because the legal values can't be determined "in isolation" doesn't  
make instance-document-generator tools "impossible", or even  
"extraordinarily difficult".  It just means the tools may to look at  
more of the schema.  If what you say were true, it would be impossible  
to use "assert" to enforce constraints at all, since one (inefficient)  
way of implementing your instance-document-generator tool would be to  
implement a tool that generated instances using the element  
declarations in isolation, and then run the resulting instances  
through an "assert-constraint-checker" and throw out the bad ones.  If  
such a constraint-checker can't be built, "assert" hasn't been  
specified properly.

--Frank

On Jun 22, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Costello, Roger L. wrote:

> SO WHAT?
>
> What this means is that an element declaration cannot be understood  
> on its own, in isolation.
>
> To understand an element you must understand all possible ancestors  
> of the element.
>
> Want to create a tool that automatically generates sample instance  
> values for each element declared in the schema? That's relatively  
> straightforward in XML Schema 1.0 because you can understand each  
> element declaration in isolation. In XML Schema 1.1, as the above  
> example illustrates, an element's value cannot be determined in  
> isolation. So, instance-document-generator tools become impossible.  
> (If not impossible, it will certainly be extraordinarily difficult)
>
> Want to create a tool that does automated analysis of element  
> declarations? That's intractable.  (If not intractable, it will  
> certainly be extraordinarily difficult)
>
>
> Comments?
>
> /Roge


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