[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] RE: What is declarative XML? (And what's not)
I guess we could ask if Roger means operational, denotational or axiomatic semantics or punt to context change potential, but outside of that or trying a different model (coherence as union of declarative and functional models), we rehash a lot of permathreads. I like the coherence models because one can talk about the web as a system of systems with a big state maintenance problem insofar as its reliability for operational use. len From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@koberg.com] I don't really get this because of the Alabama accent, but I think I agree. On Jun 2, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Len Bullard wrote: > Greg: > > "How do you exclude assumed semantics?" > > What is a satisfactory semantic for 'semantic'? We imagine we > understand it then default to syntax. We "assume". Semantics > default to systems. Rick's examples demonstrates where those > tradeoffs emerge in the structures we prefer given alternatives. > Why div class=? > > I'm not assuming semantics but qualifying them by asking why does > the order <div class=warning have a higher frequency than > <warning? My model: entanglement. Multiple systems/sources are > being controlled or controlling the markup. The intensity of the > semantic in the system is set by the use of the system, it's > behaviors over time and how those behaviors result in semantically > coherent communications among system users. Semantic strength as > intensity is fun because it is a simple scalar. Otherwise, it is > amplitude. > > Given <div class= (warning or note) is the probability of one of the > members affected by the div? No. Only the probability of the set > itself given the class and the class given the div. > > To which systems are each of the members significant? Is the > syntax or containment significant to the systems? Why that > preferred structure? > > Systems entanglement is a reasonable model. > > Kurt: not quantum XML except insofar as features of XML map to > quantum concepts. It is a model of systems phasing and the affect > of it on communications. Consider the example from Raph Koster's > list about character and environment persistence. How much state > maintenance is worth it? How much dynamic complexity can an > observer observe before it becomes deconstructive interference? In > games, this is not just a model of rendering but of game play itself > and the choices game designers have to make to ensure a game is fun > and coherent given multiple players. Coherence is a quality of > game play, therefore, of transformations over time. As to the > probability strength, it seems to me that it is not in the markup. > It is in the process. The markup is the interference pattern. > > len > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Hunt [mailto:greg@firmansyah.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:43 AM > To: XML Developers List > Subject: Re: What is declarative XML? (And what's not) > > Fuzziness is not only a feature of quantum mechanics, its a core > feature of human communication... and that fuzziness is what causes > Roger's desire for self-contained/processing-semantics-free and > processing contexst-free documents to break down. How do you > exclude assumed semantics? > > I'm also not convinced that Len is trying to be intelligible. > > Greg > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Kurt Cagle <kurt.cagle@gmail.com> > wrote: > Oh, god, we're entering into the world of quantum XML!! > > Overall, however, I'm not sure this is the most accurate conceptual > metaphor. I'm much more inclined to see various potentially > overlapping models as being frames of reference in describing > reality, in essence more of a relativistic approach, with > transformations acting as tensors mapping completely or incompletely > between these frames of reference. > > The problem with contemporary computational semantics (RDF et al) is > that assertions are binary - there is absolutely nothing in RDF that > can be used to view assertions in a stochastic or fuzzy manner, > which is one of the fundamental characteristics of quantum systems. > You can make a reasonably strong case for being able to make logical > inferences with RDF - this was what it grew out of, of course. > However, there's no formal mechanism in RDF as it stands right now > to be able to say "the probability or strength of assertion X is > 0.75". That's not to say that this couldn't be introduced, mind you, > and I'm not so sure that it's necessarily a bad idea, though the > processing becomes considerably more complex at that point once you > do make that step. > > > Kurt Cagle > Managing Editor > http://xmlToday.org > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net> > wrote: > The concept analogizes semantic coherence to interferometric > visibility and > semantic intensity to intent of communicative speech act as > expressed in the > syntax. > > Treat the name and label particles like wave functions where each > element > has intensity. > > What would the coherence/decoherence properties of RDF be contrasted > to > HTML? I think the coherence length of RDF statements would be better > because they are unentangled until related. > > len > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS > to support XML implementation and development. To minimize > spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. > > [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/ > Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org > subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org > List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > _______________________________________________________________________ XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS to support XML implementation and development. To minimize spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting. 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