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Re: XML-dev futures discussion

• To: "Miles Sabin" <miles@m...>,"XML Dev" <xml-dev@l...>
• Subject: Re: XML-dev futures discussion
• From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney@i...>
• Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 11:06:18 -0500
• References: <3E72CCDF.3000708@t...> <200303151331.29872.miles@m...> <007e01c2eaf8$fdb0b300$2000a8c0@w...> <200303151508.33146.miles@m...>
• Reply-to: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney@i...>

> It's probably also true that OASIS' listserv is a little too aggressive
> in unsubscribing bouncers. Some mechanism for keeping track of bounces
> would help diagnosing that.

Without proof of such it's essentially insulting them.  Please, they've GIVEN
this service.  Let's /prove/ whether or not they've been derelict before jumping
to conclusions.

> Not sure about this tho' ... something like Yahoo's bounce history page
> would be vastly preferable to cluttering up the list with admin
> messages.

I'm not saying clutter the list.  Put it on either another list or a
world-readable
text file.  Nothing works wonders like having visible logs.  Seeing that you're
not at fault while also having others see you might be at fault works wonders in
encouraging /everyone/ to get their act together.

> That's possible ... but it does seem as tho' the problems affect some
> people disproportionately. It'd be a bit odd (tho' I guess not
> impossible) for an outbound issue to discriminate against particular
> people.

No, it's very possible.  Routing.  If the ISP from the list server has issues
with routing to other networks this would certainly give the appearance of
individual bias.  There's enough spread that either situation could be the case.
Though, without proof we're just pulling it out of, well, the ether.

> > So it seems like the best course of action is to really find out
> > /why/ the OASIS list has been dropping folks and get that FIXED
> > first.  If it can't be fixed, after honest efforts are applied, then
> > moving is the only sound course of action.
>
> Spot on ...

The point of "honest efforts" goes both ways.  If they 'fess up with a mea culpa
(as it appears) and people here don't jump down their throats, there's as good a
chance as any that this can all be fixed.  I mean, after all, this list has
people
with considerable experience in dealing with networking issues.  But if the list
members act like jackasses about it then what impression is that going to give
to the /next/ victim that's dumb enough to host the list?  (I'm not making
accusations as I'm just as likely to fall into the jackass category as anyone
else).

List social dynamics are a huge pain in the ass.  The thought of some of the
pedants that mercilessly flog the permathreads being in charge is unpleasant, to
say the least.  Just look at what "attitude" about list management has done to
things like BSD and countless others.  Can't say we'd benefit from that sort of
crap here.

So fixing it seems the least of all evils.

-Bill Kearney

• Follow-Ups:
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• References:
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    • From: Tim Bray <tbray@t...>
  • Re: XML-dev futures discussion
    • From: Miles Sabin <miles@m...>
  • Re: XML-dev futures discussion
    • From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney@i...>
  • Re: XML-dev futures discussion
    • From: Miles Sabin <miles@m...>

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