[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] RE: XML, Rich Internet Apps
AndrewWatt2000@a... wrote: > > You mention HTML as part of the desired output. Why? Do I want (X)HTML as desired output? Of course. But it can be handled through a separate process -- I don't think an XSL-FO and/or SVG editor needs to add that layer. > > In the open source sector Cocoon can provide the XSLT/SVG/XSL-FO/PDF trip > - the capital outlay is nil but there is a lot of developer time to get > fully up to speed with Cocoon. But it is being continually developed so I > think it is one to watch. Developer time = Capital Outlay to the bean counters. Unless you're using developers from India, Russia and the like, the cash outlay on developer time on Cocoon is pretty tremendous. But this is no knock on Cocoon. They're doing a remarkable job from what I've seen. > > There seems to a be a price opportunity for someone here. Surely there is > a space between $0 and $20,000 (or is it $40,000?) for someone to offer > something else in this space? Well, like I said, unless you have Apache people on board already, the cost for Cocoon is not $0. But I get your point. > > Or that you have slightly underestimated the time to get it to market? :) That, too. > In a sense designers must be *in* the process. I see the question as being > one of how to achieve good design along with good coding (by hand or > automatic) without each getting in the other's way. Generally, the design end is not an issue. You simply develop a Photoshop file as part of your functional design document, and have your coding people code it. So my original statement was really kind of stupid. > > The huge advantage of SVG over generic XML is that human beings (for at > least certain things) think visually. > > "An SVG picture is worth 1,000 XML words!". (c)(tm) Generally, even the simplest SVG picture *is* at least a thousand XML words. But more seriously, I think for the purposes of search engine indexing, etc., it's good to try to promote the idea of the separation of content and presentation. Not to mention updating content. As much as I like SVG, my biggest concern with it is that we'll go backwards, and kill off the idea that content and presentation are separate beasts. So a minimum requirement in an SVG editor should be the ability to drag nodes from a data source onto the SVG canvas so we can give nodes their design properties there. If someone wants to just take a blank canvas and whip up SVG, that's their business, but I'd like the option to use data sources for content. > > Surely this is a question of good design. > > Part of the problem with Flash content has been bad / gratuitous design. Don't make me waste XML-Dev bandwidth on my distaste for most Flash design! I won't go there. I won't! :-) > "The rest of us" have to look to someone seeing a gap in the market > between the $0 of Apache Cocoon (which is *not* (yet) safe to let a "pure" > graphic designer near unsupervised) and the $20/40,000 of Adobe's Document > Server and/or Graphics Server. Well, if the $20,000 is *all* you need to spend on Adobe's product, it might be worth it, even against the cost of Cocoon, which requires developer salaries to administer and code. But typically, I have found that expensive software is expensive to maintain and administer. Generally, I insulate my better designers from coding anyway, unless someone is eager to expand their skills. > I am optimistic we will see several such tools in the not too distant > future. I am cautiously optimistic. I subscribed to a very busy Flash developer list not too long ago when I was working on a Flash project and was surprised that reaction to SVG, when opinions were solicited, was, at worst, lukewarm. Concerted resistance among Flash developers would be another hurdle for SVG to cross, but it's possible that Flash developers could get quite taken with SVG if only a tool comparable to Flash would emerge. But there is still virtually no installed base for SVG in browsers. What's missing is a Macromedia-style push from Adobe to get the SVG plug-in installed, but they aren't really doing that. Not really. Cheers, Chuck White ------------------------- Author, Mastering XSLT, Sybex Books Co-Author, Mastering XML Premium Edition, Sybex Books http://www.javertising.com/webtech/
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