[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] RE: constructive (was RE: Markup perspective not cod
Hi Mike, Mike said: What does that have to do with XML as markup? It's exactly what Cassandra, oops, Simon has been yelling about -- *programmers* can use proprietary APIs that -- deep down out of sight of anyone -- happen to use XML as an object serialization technique. Pardon me if I think the reference to "XML" in the headline was B.S. Didier replies: Precisely and two cause may be behind the future success of that: a) money b) ease of use If programmers get a tool that make it easy for them to accomplish their task and if they are rewarded to play in the dominant ecosystem you know the result. I think XML standalone do not resolve the issue. The real issues are resolved by languages created from XML and if adequate API are provided to developers. For instance, we actually have the DOM that make sense in the context of statically typed languages like c or C++ but does not make sense in dynamically type languages like ECMAScript. In the latter it would be possible to create an object for each element and thus satisfy the developers' requirement to be able to resolve problem with a minimal set of constructs *remember the account.balance example). I think that we embraced too much and some needs where left over, now we pay the price. Mike said: I'm actually glad that XML is proving to be useful for application integration, and only wish that it was being used here in an open rather than essentially proprietary manner. Still, Simon's point that this is utterly different from what "markup" was supposed to be about is worth pondering. What do the needs of people who are using XML for RPC-based application integration have to do with the needs of people who are using it to build vendor/platform/application-neutral documents? Didier replies: Unfortunately with the exception of some XML derived domain language and most of the XML derived rendering languages, most of the XML vocabularies/structures are in fact proprietary. What else can we expect when we say it is set for the syntaxic level?? Mike said: Is it reasonable for one organization to try to balance those competing needs? I *do* happen to think so, and invest my time with the W3C in hopes of seeing XML and the Web proved to be useful for OPEN integration scenarios. [If Simon is Cassandra, maybe I'm Pollyanna, but so be it.] Still, as Rick Jelliffe mentioned in his reply in the ISO 8879 thread, the traditional concerns of markup authors and document publishers are more central to the ISO mission these days, so maybe that's where they will be preserved. Simon himself seems to prefer the monastic life remote from both, which I'm sure will be good for his peace of mind. Didier replies: I think that the document people needs are better served actually with ISO. The ATA doctype (based on SGML) is at least a doctype having the necessary dimensions semantics/syntax/structure. We'll see real progress on the document front when stuff like invoices, statement of account, etc.. will be defined with a "standard" doctype/schema (and tutti quanti flavor of the month W3/other organization's structure definition language). HTML is still the document type used mainly by the web content producers and no XML derived language used to create documents made it to the mainstream. Yes indeed, its not the fault of people who invested so much efforts, its simply the network effect and what a critical mass can do. We are several groups on earth sharing the same alphabet and we still strive to understand each other. If XML is the equivalent of the alphabet, then it is natural that people invent languages and other usages based on it, and it is natural that we strive to understand each other. It is the nature of the beast and what is happening is the natural extension of the beast's nature. Cheers Didier PH Martin [Sorry, but I love the parallel with A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ: Uncontrolled technology leads to a Flame Deluge, followed by a Great Simplification, with the Memorabilia of the markup age preserved in the Abbey of St. Laurent in trust for a future era that can appreciate it ... which will in turn pervert that knowledge, leading to another uncontrolled technology boom, leading to yet another Flame Deluge ... Sic transit XML. <sickly grin> ] ----------------------------------------------------------------- The xml-dev list is sponsored by XML.org <http://www.xml.org>, an initiative of OASIS <http://www.oasis-open.org> The list archives are at http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/ To subscribe or unsubscribe from this list use the subscription manager: <http://lists.xml.org/ob/adm.pl>
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