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Re: XML in the alleged Real World (was Re: Does XML-

• To: "Mike Champion" <mc@x...>,<xml-dev@l...>
• Subject: Re: XML in the alleged Real World (was Re: Does XML-Dev matter?)
• From: "Steven Livingstone" <s.livingstone@b...>
• Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:54:28 -0000
• References: <A02ZJHEDRN31ZYF0RN72ZUB72WQK06YW.3c9dcc39@MChamp>
• Reply-to: "Steven Livingstone" <s.livingstone@b...>

>XSLT is good for simple things, hard for hard things, and
> the tools don't help with the hard stuff.

Yep, and this was a reason touted by Microsoft for not building some of the
ASP.NET stuff on XSLT.
I (personally) don't think XSLT is all that hard, i just find that sometimes
there are limits around what you
can reasonable do with it (client state being an example i had hassles
with). Forget passing 50 parameters to preserve
state.
There are generally always way around it, but then it effects performance
coz it's all done on the server.

If we could say that the two main browsers supported the XSLT standard,
everything would be an awfully lot easier.
In any case,  i think you need XML+XSLT+Glue in any reasonable sized
application - but then i never expected XSLT to
be all things anyway. I guess i mean "ServerXSLT" - something combining the
environment with XSLT itself. The inverse of server
controls in .NET, where XSLT is the focus containing business server logic
rather than the other way round
(which is really what controls in ASP.NET give us).

cheers,
Steven
http://deltabis.com/steven

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Champion" <mc@x...>
To: <xml-dev@l...>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:53 PM
Subject:  XML in the alleged Real World (was Re:  Does
XML-Dev matter?)


> 3/24/2002 3:48:24 AM, AndrewWatt2000@a... wrote:
>
>
> >
> >  Seriously, what was indicated as being overwhelming about XSLT? If the
> >  alleged real world doesn't get XSLT what hope is there for
comprehension of
> >  the more complete XML Jigsaw / XML Spaghetti (choose your term
according to
> >  taste)?
> >
> >
> >  And just for completeness what were the characteristics of the "real
world"
> >  which you mention?
>
> The slice of the "real world" I visited was in Europe, and the people I
referred
> to were people with long experience in IT who had used XML (and simple
> XSLT apps) for a year or two, but "hit the wall" trying to implement
actual
> customer requirements for Web applications using XSLT.  I'm not talking
> about a big sample of people, I'm talking about a sense I got from a few
> conversations: XSLT is good for simple things, hard for hard things, and
> the tools don't help with the hard stuff.
>
> But the "what hope is there for the whole tangled ball of X-spaghetti if
> experienced software developers have trouble applying one of the best and
> most widely supported specs" is PRECISELY the point.  Tim Bray's
presentation
> makes us think about how other innovative technologies became accepted
> by the mainstream or not. It seems more and more clear that those tools
> that help people get their Day Jobs done without making them bet their
> careers on learning a new, complex way of working are those that tend to
> succeed. I don't spend enough time in the Real World outside XML geekdom
> to have strong opinions on where the 80/20 point in XML (broadly defined)
> really is, but I think that's exactly the question we should be asking
> ourselves, one another, and our customers.
>
> I mentioned this all in response to a question "Does XML-DEV Matter?" -- I
> say it *does* matter because questions like this have been asked and
> wrestled with here for years, even if the answers are not yet obvious.
> Maybe it's value is like that of a sailor's bar
> in the 15th century - if you don't have a good map to guide you, the
> gossip -- about who headed where, who came back, and who didn't --
> is a WHOLE lot better than nothing.
>
>
>
>
>
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  • XML in the alleged Real World (was Re: Does XML-Dev matter?)
    • From: Mike Champion <mc@x...>

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