[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message]

RE: W3C's five new XQuery/Xpath2 working drafts - Still miss

  • To: Sean McGrath <sean.mcgrath@p...>, xml-dev@l...
  • Subject: RE: W3C's five new XQuery/Xpath2 working drafts - Still missing Updates
  • From: Jonathan Robie <jonathan.robie@s...>
  • Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:33:00 -0500
  • In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.2.20020102141552.01da60a0@s...>
  • References: <9A4FC925410C024792B85198DF1E97E4021BDA23@s... >

RE:   W3C's five new XQuery/Xpath2 working drafts -  Still miss
At 02:24 PM 1/2/2002 +0000, Sean McGrath wrote:

>>[Michael Champion]
>>The larger issues that Mike Kay raises are critical: All this committee work
>>is for nothing if the result is too complex or expensive to actually use.  I
>>am not all that much dumber than the average software developer, I have
>>followed the XML world full-time for 5 years now, and this
>>schema/PSVI/strongly-typed XQuery stuff makes my head spin.  I can't imagine
>>what ordinary developers who don't focus on XML will think of it.
>>
>>Actually, come to think of it, I can ... it will be C++ and the Windows API
>>all over again; few developers go anywhere near it without GUI tools and
>>wizards to hide the complexity behind a proprietary front end.

Formalisms are a helpful way to design something that is simple and 
consistent. For most users, formalisms are not easy to grasp, so they are 
not a good way to present a language to a user. Languages quite commonly 
are designed using tools that the user is not exposed to - relatively few 
users read the EBNF description of the languages they use, learn the formal 
type system, or understand precisely how polymorphism is implemented. In a 
well-designed language, this does not prevent them from using the syntax, 
the types, polymorphism, etc based on an informal understanding.

RELAX-NG is a simple and straightforward language, but it is defined with 
formalisms quite similar to those of the XML Query Formal Semantics. XML 
Schema is not as simple and straightforward as RELAX-NG, and this may be 
partly due to the fact that its formal semantics were defined after the 
language itself - had it been done earlier, I think XML Schema would be 
simpler for end users.

I think XQuery is pretty easy and straightforward for end users.

>Thus playing right into the hands of those who would make lock us in
>to their tools. As data owners, we need to fight this. When really smart
>people start talking about needing GUIs to grok what some notation really
>*means*, they are wittingly or otherwise heading down the vendor-lockin
>fork in the road.

I disagree - the formalisms ensure that the language is unambiguously 
specified, which ensures interoperability.

Most programmers work perfectly well with a somewhat vague understanding of 
what their languages do - adequate for programming, but not adequate for 
implementing the language. I doubt very much that people will learn XQuery 
by reading the Formal Semantics. The language specification itself is also 
becoming more oriented toward implementors.

>I fully expect to get flamed for that statement but what the heck.
>I'm trying to grok some vendor locked in XML at the moment and consequently
>I'm not in a very good humour.

XQuery is being widely implemented - surely you are not claiming that it is 
a proprietary vendor scheme? If so, which vendor are you accusing? Since 
the original language, Quilt, was created by people from Software AG, IBM, 
and Crossgain, I assume one or more of these companies must have hatched 
the plot....

Jonathan


PURCHASE STYLUS STUDIO ONLINE TODAY!

Purchasing Stylus Studio from our online shop is Easy, Secure and Value Priced!

Buy Stylus Studio Now

Download The World's Best XML IDE!

Accelerate XML development with our award-winning XML IDE - Download a free trial today!

Don't miss another message! Subscribe to this list today.
Email
First Name
Last Name
Company
Subscribe in XML format
RSS 2.0
Atom 0.3
 

Stylus Studio has published XML-DEV in RSS and ATOM formats, enabling users to easily subcribe to the list from their preferred news reader application.


Stylus Studio Sponsored Links are added links designed to provide related and additional information to the visitors of this website. they were not included by the author in the initial post. To view the content without the Sponsor Links please click here.

Site Map | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Trademarks
Free Stylus Studio XML Training:
W3C Member
Stylus Studio® and DataDirect XQuery ™are products from DataDirect Technologies, is a registered trademark of Progress Software Corporation, in the U.S. and other countries. © 2004-2013 All Rights Reserved.