[XML-DEV Mailing List Archive Home] [By Thread] [By Date] [Recent Entries] [Reply To This Message] SAX, OASIS, &c.
I see from xmlhack that I've become embroiled in a debate taking place in a list that I don't s*bscribe to. Oops. I hope that everyone will simply allow me to start over here. To begin with, there are a few things that people should be aware of. 1. Regarding public access to the work of OASIS technical committees, the OASIS archives are at http://www.xml.org/archives/ The interface leaves a lot to be desired, but all the non-administrative work groups seem to be open to public view. I am NOT RESPONSIBLE for the functioning of these mail lists, so I'm the wrong person to complain to when they suffer technical difficulties. Note that the publicly visible archives include not only messages posted in the small number of existing OASIS technical committees (docbook, tables, workprocess, xmlconf, xmlorg) but also in the working groups of the ebXML effort, which is a joint initiative of OASIS and the United Nations body for Trade Facilitation and Electronic Business (UN/CEFACT). The OASIS administrative lists (e.g., IPR) are properly not visible to non-members, and when the current crop of site maintenance issues abates, I will suggest to the maintainers that the admin lists be moved onto a separate index page so that the TC lists don't appear to be randomly accessible. 2. Please bear in mind that I am not a s*bscriber to xml-dev; I cannot begin to deal with the volume of mail it receives. I do s*bscribe to the digest, but I hardly ever have time to read it. (And in fact I haven't seen a copy of the digest lately. Hmm.) I would end even the digest subscription except that I do occasionally need to post an announcement to the list. So in general I'm not aware of discussions as they are happening here. Because this arrangement makes my meaningful participation on the xml-dev list virtually impossible, I have tried to make it a policy not to respond to postings that I happen to see even when I have strong opinions on them. I fell off the wagon this time, for which I apologize. 3. While the evolution of XML core technologies is in able hands, there seem to me to be equally important problems related to the implementation of XML industrial standards that are not receiving adequate attention. I have recently withdrawn from W3C participation in order to devote my energies to helping solve these problems. Thus, I am no longer speaking ex cathedra with regard to W3C. In fact, I am no longer directly aware of issues under discussion within W3C at all. I should also point out that I am not speaking for Sun either, but only for myself. Trusting that that's all now clear, I'd like to address some points that came up in response to my posting of 2000.02.11. My comments about SAX came from an attempt to grapple with what appear to me to be long-term problems, not just with SAX but with the evolution of XML industry standards generally. I didn't mean to imply that any changes should be made to the management of the phase of the SAX design effort currently underway; I am far too much of an industrial pragmatist to suggest anything that would disrupt a successful effort before it hit some natural stopping-place. But I am trying to make people aware of the consequences of continuing this way over the long run. I'm trying to point out that the often stormy climate in which you maintain something like an industry API is different from that halcyon weather you enjoy during the first phases of its development. Some questions have arisen over my comments about democracy. My definition of democracy is taken from the Oxford English Dictionary: 1. Government by the people; that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people as a whole, and is exercised either directly by them (as in the small republics of antiquity) or by officers elected by them. "Exercised directly" means today exactly what it meant "in the small republics of antiquity": it means voting. "Elected" means voting, too. But some people define democracy as in the next sentence from the same dictionary: In mod. use often more vaguely denoting a social state in which all have equal rights, without hereditary or arbitrary differences of rank or privilege. I mean democracy in the technical sense of the first part of the definition, not in the loose sense of the second. Properly speaking, the process by which SAX is being designed is not democratic, because its only way to resolve differences of opinion is through the personal decision of an unelected individual. The fact that the individual in question happens to be doing a near-perfect job seems to make people oblivious to the problem of how this is all supposed to work over the long run. I am lucky indeed that circumstances have provided David Megginson as my example; it's so silly to call him a dictator that everyone can understand that what I'm pointing to is the potential implications of the current process, not David himself. In that process, what gets done is done by David -- with due regard for everyone's comments and suggestions, to be sure, but in the final analysis, it's his call. Since David's judgement is very sound and he is very fair and knowledgeable, everyone seems to agree that this process is working out terrifically well at the moment. But good or bad, it's not democracy, and it won't work as SAX and other XML standards become the foundation of our commercial infrastructure. It's clear, I hope, that I have no objection to the collaborative artistic process that can inform the first and even sometimes the second version of a technical specification. What I'm saying is that it is possible to operate this way only in the absence of concrete economic interests in proposed features of the specification. The artistic climate in which this group has been operating won't last when subjected to the stresses of big competitive investments in the outcomes of certain decisions. I can testify that you do not want to be using an unstructured process like the one that's been working so far in this list when it reaches the point where big chunks of people's code get written in slightly different ways according to slightly different models of the next release or variant interpretations of the current one, and you have to use the list to decide whose early implementation decisions will end up instantiated in the spec and whose ten thousand person-hours of effort will end up in the trash can. Without a democratic process for the orderly resolution of competing interests, this becomes (to use a phrase Len Bullard taught me) nothing but a knife fight. And pretty soon it attracts the participation of well-funded people who *like* knife fights. This is what happens when large sums of money are involved. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. I believe that David is far too sane to stay in his current role with SAX for the rest of his life. At some point he's going to put the responsibility for sorting out future knife fights somewhere else. Whether that responsibility ends up with us, or with a vendor-run consortium, or with the leading implementor appears to be up to us to decide. If we want it to end up with us, then we have to put in place genuine, heavy-duty, industrial-strength decision processes that can resolve real differences between real competitors and are guaranteed to stay open to the participation of all interested parties even when working under full load. It doesn't have to be done right this minute, but it has to be done at some point if we want to remain relevant to the direction of this technology over the long run rather than turning over responsibility to the vendors. The world won't end if we don't accomplish this and if future versions of SAX and other XML standards come to be defined by vendor consortia or in proprietary back rooms. But we certainly won't be left with any warrant to complain about this outcome if we fail to provide a legal, democratic alternative. Jon ========================================== Jon Bosak, XML Architect, Sun Microsystems Chair, OASIS Process Advisory Committee ========================================== *************************************************************************** This is xml-dev, the mailing list for XML developers. 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